TMIT 37: Disagree and Commit – How Families Can Fight Without Falling Apart

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Welcome to the most important
thing.

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I'm Danielle.
And I'm Greg, and together we're

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exploring how ADJ saved my life.
That is true.

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No, seriously, we just found
out, guys, that listening to

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house music, according to a
recent study by University

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College London, suggests that
tracks in the 120 to 130 beats

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per minute range may actually
slow biological aging by as much

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as six years.
That's awesome.

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So I'm like 3 years old by by
that measure.

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So for all of you other club
rats out there, we are so

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thrilled to to be seeing these
results, right?

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It's amazing.
So let me let me read this to

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you.
Researchers analyze brain scans

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and genetic data from over
35,000 individuals, discovering

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that these steady rhythms
improve brain function and

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significantly reduce cortisol.
Notably, participants who

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frequently listen to house music
also exhibited heart rate

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patterns and neural signatures
similar to much younger adults,

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strong indicators of enhanced
longevity.

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Steady, upbeat rhythms appear to
synchronize with brain and

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cardiovascular systems, easing
stress and reinforcing neural

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health.
That's crazy.

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I wonder why that is?
I mean, it's like, there's got

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to be something to like,
rhythmic dance.

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Yeah.
And tribal bonding.

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Something like that that.
Keeps us feeling like we're a

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part of something bigger.
That's what I would suggest.

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Interesting.
I'm thinking about our neighbor

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that we don't even know but that
lives one block north of us that

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has the car that on the back
says like I love house music and

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how they have disco balls in
their front yard.

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Yes.
And if you think about it like

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their house is so youthful,
truly, and they have kids that

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are like in their early 20s and
I always think like these are

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the cool parents.
Like they are actually the cool

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parents.
So well, we are not getting in

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our club, our club outings, but
not anymore.

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From 8:00 to 9:00 every day you
will hear out of our garage

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blaring house music as we're
working out.

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So that's where we're getting
our reps in.

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Yeah, it's like huge.
It's very exciting.

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We think that the whole person
is important as we explore

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family, leadership and how we
build culture at home.

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And so today we're going to talk
about the art of disagreeing.

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It's one of those things that we
don't necessarily love to look

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at, but that comes up all the
time within the family, right?

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Oh, it doesn't just like anger,
right?

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And I think as leaders of our
family, we are often trying to

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balance 2 important goals.
On the one hand, we want every

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member of our family to feel
like they can speak up and they

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their voice matters.
And on the other, we really

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value harmony.
Totally right.

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Family as a team.
Exactly.

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And so sometimes I think that
these these goals can feel

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opposing, right?
They can feel like opposites.

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But in researching this episode,
I think you and I now believe

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that especially even like
pulling from what we know at

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work, that disagreement can
actually be used to strengthen

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the team.
Yeah, absolutely.

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It's a, it's a great muscle to,
to work, right.

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If we are always going with the
flow and always going with what

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mom and dad say, we're never
going to develop our own, our

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own, you know, like strong
willed nature.

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That is very important in life.
And if we're always pushing back

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against mom and dad and never
agreeing, we're, we're never

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going to learn how to operate as
a team.

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So this is definitely something
that we need to teach our kids

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and probably something that I
should have learned earlier in

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life.
Absolutely.

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I mean, I think we're starting
to see in our family kind of one

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or the other.
We have our eldest daughter

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Hunter often loves, she loves to
disagree, right, But doesn't

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necessarily do it in an
effective way.

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It kind of does puts us on the
defensive often.

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Whereas Jade has a more of a
tendency to just go with the

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flow, right?
And I think especially when we

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start rewarding politeness and
that like being easy, that can

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be a dangerous place.
So today what we want to talk

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about is how disagreeing can
really be used as a way to

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strengthen the family and the
family as a team, how we can do

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it effectively, and why avoiding
disagreement can leave us

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unprotected.
And then we'll also leave you

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with one heuristic that will
kick agree to disagree out of

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your vocabulary forever.
Yes.

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Can we talk about that a little
bit?

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So I think that you and I have
rumbled with this, agree to

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disagree a little bit more
recently because I'm just going

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to say that like, I think it
sucks.

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I think it's a terrible concept.
Very, very rarely is it useful

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because nowhere in the history
of relationships has someone

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said, let's agree to disagree in
a constructive manner, right?

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It's always passive aggressive.
It's always a way to kind of

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disengage emotionally while
feeling holier than thou, like,

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oh, I'm the wise one.
I'm the one that's going to just

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settle this.
And there's really no, there's

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no resolution.
Yeah, it rolls off the tongue

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and I feel like people just use
it because of that.

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And I'm so guilty of it.
Even when we were talking about

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it this weekend at family
meeting the next day, Hunter's

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like, you know, mommy, you say
agree to disagree.

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And I'm like, I know and I'm not
going to say it anymore.

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No, we can't use it.
And when it comes to disputing

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facts, which is probably the
only time that it's actually

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appropriate, like, oh, you know,
I wore a pair of brown shoes

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yesterday.
I know you wore black shoes.

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Agree to disagree more and more.
We can just go to the tape,

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right?
We've got we're, we're taking

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photos, we're taking videos.
I've got my limitless pin like.

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Find the truth.
We can find the truth.

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We can, we can do if you play,
you know, take the NFL or the

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MLB and just like go to the tape
and and figure out what actually

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happened.
So no more agree to disagree.

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Let's get that out.
Yeah, because I also think that

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in our family, the kids will
learn that we don't have

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difficult conversations, right?
And that disagreement is

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dangerous if we can, if we
continue down this path of

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agreeing to disagree, right.
So from now on we've seen agree

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to disagree is a loser move.
It's a loser move.

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We invite everyone to get it out
of their houses, throw it away

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with the rest of the.
Trash.

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That's right, and we will later
in this episode share what to do

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instead.
Yes.

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We will.
So as you were talking about

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Hunter and Jade, this reminds me
of our fixed and growth mindset

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episode where it's this whole
disagreeableness needs to be a

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spectrum.
Yet we find kids typically on

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one end or the other right where
Jade is going with the flow,

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Hunter is pushing back.
And so I think it's about

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getting one kid on the other end
and understanding how to go

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more, go with the flow and the
the other one had to have a

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voice.
Yeah.

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And I think that's true.
You know, a lot of what we're

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going to talk about today
reminds me of our framework for

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repair that we've learned from
the kids school around heart

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repair, which is really
nonviolent communication, right.

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And so no matter what end of the
spectrum you're on, if you love

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to fight or are super easy going
and hate, you know, avoid

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conflict at all costs, it gives
everyone kind of a level playing

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field in order to Yeah, to
effectively resolve resolve

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issues.
And I think that this, if we can

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get into the research a bit, we
can talk about how disagreement

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can be productive when we Co
create a framework that is

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really research backed.
Yep, right.

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Yep.
OK.

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And so the first one I want to
pull in is the research on

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psychological safety that
perhaps you've heard of from

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Google's Project Aristotle way
back in 2012.

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So what they did was they ran a
multi year internal study where

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they were trying to figure out
why some teams consistently

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outperform others.
And so they analyzed more than

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100 teams and reviewed a decade
of academic research.

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And what they found is that The
Who mattered far less than the

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how, and the team composition
didn't necessarily predict

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performance.
What mattered most was

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psychological safety, which is
the shared belief that the team

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is safe and able to take risks.
So speaking up when you disagree

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with a strategy, for example, or
risk taking on your own

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projects.
But when people can speak up,

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admit mistakes, ask questions
and offer ideas, that creates

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the foundation for teams to
thrive.

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Yeah, this has turned into, I
think, a misused term as well,

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psychological safety, where it's
definitely in the woke.

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What is it called the?
Zeitgeist.

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Well, yes, it's in the
zeitgeist, but what's

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vocabulary?
But what are what are people

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calling the woke machine now?
It's like the.

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Woke mind virus.
Woke mind virus.

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This is part of the woke mind
virus, where psychological

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safety means that you have to
feel like there's no tension and

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no conflict.
And that's actually the opposite

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of what this is about.
Yes, because psychological

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safety means that you can bring
up things that you disagree with

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and you feel safe to do so in
that.

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It's kind of the opposite of
what it's been kind of recasted

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as, right?
Just like I only feel

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psychologically safe if you
don't say things to offend me,

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which is actually the complete
opposite of what we're talking

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about here, which is you feel
safe expressing your truth or

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admitting a mistake without
worrying if I'm going to be

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offended because we all trust
each other here, right?

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And so I think this is such an
important concept for families

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because we do have this natural
foundation of trust and

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connection that we can
strengthen.

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Well, we better, right?
Yes, yes.

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But I'm, I'm assuming that
everyone who listens to this

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podcast has a strong foundation
where we are continuing to lean

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into what works, right?
And So what we're talking about

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today is really leveraging
disagreement, something that

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happens consistently in our
families, to bring that bond

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even stronger and to use it as a
way of saying no, like everyone

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is safe here to speak up and
your voice deserves to be heard.

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Right.
Can I just say that harmony and

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cohesion as a team doesn't mean
that everyone agrees and

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everyone is, you know, voting
for the same cause, or everyone

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is, you know, of the same
political view, right?

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Harmony and cohesion requires
diversity in a strange way.

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And so this is where I, I have a
bone to pick with psychological

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safety as a term, because when
someone goes to an goes to their

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boss and they say, oh, you know,
my, my superior or like my peer

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doesn't make me feel
psychologically safe because of

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the articles that they're
reading on their computer or

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because of the, you know, of the
way that they.

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But that's the misuse.
Right.

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That's exactly very clearly not
like the Amy Edmondson term.

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No, totally.
And so this is another, this is

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another one that we need to
where we need to set the record

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straight that, you know, the
Google research is, is extremely

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well put, but people have taken
that and, and they've really

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weaponized it.
Yes, absolutely.

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It goes back to a lot of what
Mary Murphy has talked about in

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cultures of growth in
organizations where we have to

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be able to admit mistakes and
speak up is what makes a team

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feel psychologically safe.
So psychological safety really

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matters.
I think it's a foundation that

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we can build upon as a family.
The second is research from Adam

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Grant.
Way back when, when he wrote

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Give and Take, he really talked
about how if we focus on ideas

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instead of personal attacks, we
can use disagreement to sharpen

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thinking.
And so I really like this

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concept that disagreement can be
a critical thinking tool where

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we see a problem to solve
together, as opposed to conflict

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that becomes interpersonal.
Right.

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Make disagreement about ideas,
not about identity.

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Yes, so that is a huge finding
that I think everyone can agree,

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but it's hard to do like I was,
you know, I was looking at some

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examples of making it personal
that I'm really guilty of things

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like you're not listening or
that makes no sense.

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00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,480
And then I love the ideas
example.

229
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,640
So the ways to speak more
respectfully would be I see it

230
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,840
differently.
Here's why I think this option

231
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,680
might work better.
Or I agree with the goal.

232
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,400
I disagree with the method, not
your method.

233
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,560
I disagree with the method.
Can we revisit this path?

234
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,440
And then my favorite these days
'cause I think about this a lot

235
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:26,840
is your point.
Makes sense.

236
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,400
I'm looking at a different time
horizon.

237
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,520
Let's compare because I think so
much and you and I have gotten

238
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,400
into dialogue about this more
recently where we may disagree

239
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,160
on something, but we have a
different frame of reference or

240
00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,000
a different time horizon that
we're thinking it through.

241
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,480
Absolutely, absolutely.
This brings up another passive

242
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,880
aggressive phrase that I hear a
lot in the workplace.

243
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,920
And it is let's try to separate
feelings from facts, which

244
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:03,840
implies that my feelings, your
feelings are not valid here.

245
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,720
What?
The only thing that matters is

246
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,840
the facts.
And then we'll address your

247
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,360
feelings later about why you
have those feelings.

248
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,400
And that is actually making it
way more personal than it needs

249
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,040
to be.
Whereas what you just said, I

250
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,120
disagree about the time, about
the time horizon, right?

251
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,880
Or like, I think we're weighing
the risks differently.

252
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,160
Right is a beautiful way to talk
about the core of the issue

253
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,160
without saying someone's
feelings are wrong.

254
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,720
Right.
Well, I think what you're saying

255
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,320
is when someone says to you,
let's separate feelings from

256
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,560
facts, they are presupposing
that whatever you just said

257
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,680
involves your feelings and not
facts.

258
00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,000
That's really what they're
saying, right?

259
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:48,960
It's like agree to disagree.
Exactly.

260
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,560
But saying that, I think we're
weighing the risks differently.

261
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,240
We're we're thinking, I'm, I'm
thinking about a different time

262
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,360
horizon just means like where we
are, we're not having a meeting

263
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,920
of the minds because we're
thinking about this same issue

264
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,760
from two different perspectives,
which is the same thing is let's

265
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,960
separate feelings from facts.
But it doesn't come off where I

266
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,200
want to punch you in the face.
Agreed.

267
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,720
No.
So it really these these words

268
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,080
really do matter.
And so I think that if we can

269
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,760
work with each other to model
keeping the focus on the problem

270
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,520
and not making it personal,
keeping it, keeping the focus

271
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,680
on, I should say, keeping the
focus on the ideas and the time

272
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,480
horizon or the goal versus the
method.

273
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,640
I think we can do a lot of
service to helping our children

274
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,000
in being respectful.
So this past weekend at family

275
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,360
meeting, we were talking about
this idea.

276
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,840
And quite frankly, the first
thing that comes out of all

277
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,280
three of our children's mouths
these days is you're a stupid

278
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,440
idiot anytime that they're mad,
right?

279
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,800
And so can we shift that
language from you're a stupid

280
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:03,920
idiot to I don't like the way
you did X is a real 'cause it,

281
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,680
it immediately becomes personal.
And then it's like, no, you are.

282
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,240
And then before you know it,
like it's, it just evolves so

283
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,720
quickly.
And so talking about how we can

284
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,720
really be more specific with our
words about what is the concept?

285
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,640
What is the idea that you are
angry with?

286
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,440
And it involves, it involves
more thinking, right?

287
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,000
It really does.
It involves more critical

288
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,080
thinking.
But I think that that's why it's

289
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,160
so important to do here, because
the stakes are much higher at

290
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:38,800
school with your friends and you
start to, if you don't disagree

291
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,120
effectively, you can lose that
sense of belonging.

292
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,960
And so I would also like to talk
about the perils of being too

293
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,120
agreeable.
So I think that if we don't just

294
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,800
learn to disagree effectively,
we are at risk of not trying

295
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,520
anymore, right?
Especially as women, as girls,

296
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,200
right?
And so research shows that

297
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:06,160
agreeableness for women is
socially rewarded early but

298
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,800
penalized later, especially in
the workforce.

299
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,240
So when there are roles that
require leadership or strong

300
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:19,319
boundaries, they are often
passed over because they're seen

301
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:24,040
as a team player or the glue of
the team, but not necessarily a

302
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,359
leader.
Yeah.

303
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,920
And I can speak to this from
personal experience.

304
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:36,920
I think especially in my
nonprofit work, I have been very

305
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,760
quick to fall into, oh, let me
be the secretary, I'll be the

306
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,920
note taker.
I'll be the one that I'm happy

307
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:50,240
to keep us organized, right?
And that immediately places me

308
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,040
at lower status.
And it actually kind of, not

309
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,320
only does it put me into a space
where I'm kind of being

310
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,840
rigorously perfectionistic and
not keeping it high level and

311
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:08,400
brainstorming, but also, I mean,
women who are secretaries of

312
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,840
meetings don't do it.
Just don't do it.

313
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,880
Let somebody else do it.
People don't call from the

314
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,560
secretaries to become the
leaders.

315
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,680
No.
And then if you are default

316
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:27,200
secretary, you shift into this
persona inside that role and it

317
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:32,360
carries outside that role where
you're pointing out things that

318
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:36,360
people are doing wrong, like you
become the vibe killer.

319
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,880
Exactly, which is also another
place where women are often

320
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,200
pigeonholed in, but I would say
relates to not knowing how to

321
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,640
disagree effectively.
And at the right time, yeah, you

322
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,680
know, raising it without
trepidation, bringing it to a

323
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,280
strong point early on versus
being the last hand to to raise

324
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,760
when you feel uncomfortable and
no one else has said anything.

325
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,400
Yeah, and I think that's a huge
thing, especially for women.

326
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,600
And to paraphrase Lisa Marciano
in The Vital Spark, if you teach

327
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,120
a girl to be nice before you
teach her to be strong, she will

328
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:15,120
confuse compliance with
kindness, and that can leave her

329
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:19,080
unprotected.
And so I think this is such an

330
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,320
important thing to teach
everyone in our family, but

331
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,600
especially our girls, that your
two options aren't being, quite

332
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,840
frankly, the OR the agreeable
Angel, right?

333
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,800
James Hollis says that the
opposite of a reflexive goodness

334
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,200
is not the bad, but the
authentic.

335
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:44,680
And so it's such an important
behavior to teach our family to

336
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,560
be able to speak up for
ourselves, but to do it in a way

337
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:53,400
that doesn't rupture connection.
Yeah, I'm.

338
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,360
I'm sitting with this confusing
compliance with kindness and

339
00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:01,840
being unprotected.
You said something over the

340
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,480
weekend that really stuck with
me about being in unsafe

341
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,400
situations.
You're right.

342
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,000
I was in researching this
episode and in thinking about

343
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,920
the topic of disagreeing, I
would, I would kind of put

344
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,080
myself more traditionally on
that spectrum of the person

345
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,840
who's loud and proud and not
very effective at disagreeing.

346
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,000
But I do think that there have
been times in my life where I

347
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,320
have been too agreeable and it
has left me unprotected.

348
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,640
And in particular, I think about
how many times in high school

349
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,720
did I get into a car with
someone who should not be

350
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,200
driving because there were a
group of us and I wanted to go

351
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,160
with the flow.
And I, you know, my, my arms

352
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,320
would get tingly.
And even now, just saying it

353
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,240
like thinking about that, you
know, knowing in the pit of my

354
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,640
stomach that this wasn't
necessarily a safe choice for

355
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,920
myself or any of us, but not
wanting to disrupt the flow.

356
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,240
I really see you as having a
strong voice, and I believe that

357
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,960
from what you've told me, you
found that in the workplace in

358
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,680
your early 20s and maybe in
college as well.

359
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,040
But I think that the opportunity
here is to shift that that

360
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,440
awareness and and the giving the
freedom to our our girls much

361
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,360
earlier in life where they can
be strong and confident.

362
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,160
But not seen as the secretary,
not seen as the not seen as the

363
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,640
vibe killer, not seen as the
party pooper, right?

364
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,120
Seen as somebody that is a
leader that it that has a

365
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,360
different perspective that is
not attacking your views, but is

366
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,920
saying, I see this differently
because I'm thinking about the

367
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,280
risks differently or I'm
thinking about the opportunity

368
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,920
to, you know, to make a
difference on a longer time

369
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,240
horizon.
And that's kind of the way that,

370
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,960
you know, our kids need to be
interacting.

371
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,240
That's the way that our kids
need to be interacting with

372
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,600
their peers at school, even with
their teachers is polite, firm

373
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,400
and proud.
Not, you know, or passive

374
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,720
aggressive or passive
aggressive.

375
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,000
Right, which have traditionally
been the two options, right.

376
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,080
And so I think this is where our
tool really comes in handy.

377
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:18,400
And so this is the concept of
disagree and commit.

378
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,720
Do you want to talk about it?
Yeah.

379
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:25,000
OK, I would love to.
So this is an Amazon leadership

380
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,560
principle.
It was coined in the Amazon 2016

381
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:34,000
shareholder letter where Jeff
Bezos outlined the way that they

382
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:40,120
make decisions in Amazon.
And first he talked about making

383
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,840
high quality decisions quickly
because in order to be a fast

384
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,800
moving organization, and he
talks about being a day one

385
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,440
versus a day 2 organization,
right, you have to make high

386
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,400
quality, high velocity
decisions.

387
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,960
So how do you do that?
Well, first he says never use A1

388
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,000
size fits all decision making
process.

389
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,200
Most decisions are reversible
two way doors.

390
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,280
Those decisions can use a
lightweight process.

391
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,680
So what if you're wrong right?
You can walk it back.

392
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,640
And in fact, most decisions,
this is his second point should

393
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,760
probably be made with somewhere
around 70% of the information

394
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,640
that you wish you had.
If you wait for 90%, you're

395
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,520
probably being slow.
Plus I love this.

396
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,480
Either way, you need to be good
at quickly recognizing and

397
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,320
correcting bad decisions.
If you're good at course

398
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,640
correcting, being wrong may be
less costly than you think,

399
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,640
whereas being slow is going to
be expensive for sure.

400
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,520
And this brings us into disagree
and commit.

401
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,120
And disagree and commit is a
phrase that Jeff Bezos says is

402
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:47,120
about bringing conviction even
though there's no consensus.

403
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,520
This is very different from
agree to disagree where Jeff

404
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,040
says, look, I know we disagree
on this, but will you gamble

405
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,840
with me on it?
Disagree and commit.

406
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,680
By the time you're at this
point, no one can know the

407
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,000
answer for sure and you'll
probably get a quick yes.

408
00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:04,920
Right.
So it's not about pretending you

409
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,200
agree, right?
It's about helping make the

410
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,440
chosen strategy or activity the
best that it can be, despite

411
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,640
what you think.
Because what on the one hand,

412
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,880
how important is it if the vast
majority of the decisions that

413
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,720
we're making, not just at a
startup, but certainly within

414
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,720
our family are either not that
important or a two way door, as

415
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,960
you say, meaning that we can
always reverse course, right?

416
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,120
And, and this is, I think what
really brings it into the family

417
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:39,160
context is because you value
being a new Feld more than you

418
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,920
value what we're doing on a
Saturday afternoon.

419
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,760
And you value the members of
this family so much that you are

420
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,840
willing, no matter how you
wanted to spend it, whether you

421
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,000
wanted to go on a bike ride, but
everybody else wants to go to

422
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,080
the beach.
You're going to disagree, Have

423
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,720
your voice heard.
But once we make that quick

424
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,040
decision, that convicted
decision, you are going to do

425
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,320
everything in your power to make
that the best darn Saturday

426
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,120
beach time that we have ever
had.

427
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,960
Yes.
And when you say you, it's not

428
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,240
just the kids, it's me and you.
Absolutely.

429
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,200
I mean, I think we are doing
that and now talking about it

430
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,200
more and making it more explicit
has already helped them see that

431
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,360
oh, mommy and daddy don't always
get to choose right, Right.

432
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,520
I mean, how many weekends have
we done things that you and I

433
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,600
don't really want to do?
You even got a bike like and you

434
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,080
know, there's been I think, you
know, I don't think bike riding

435
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,560
is your favorite activity.
I think you're starting to learn

436
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,520
to enjoy it.
But that's a whole nother lesson

437
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,320
in and of itself, which is like,
and I think Jeff Bezos talks

438
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,240
about this too.
It's like somewhere along that

439
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,800
line of that strategy, whichever
one you're choosing, even if you

440
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,520
didn't choose it as you are
faking it till you make it if

441
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,000
you will, sometimes you end up
having fun or agreeing that this

442
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:01,040
was actually the right course.
And Jeff says it beautifully.

443
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,680
He says.
Note that this is not me

444
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,600
thinking to myself.
He's talking about modeling.

445
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,720
Disagree and commit as the boss.
Well, these guys are wrong and

446
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,640
missing the point, but it's not
worth me chasing.

447
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,200
It's a genuine disagreement of
opinion, a candid expression of

448
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,480
my view, a chance for the team
to weigh my view, and a quick,

449
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,000
sincere commitment to go their
way.

450
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,200
I mean, how incredibly
motivating and powerful and

451
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,360
connecting is that for you to
say?

452
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:27,800
You know what?
I disagree.

453
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,840
However, you seem to be really
passionate about this.

454
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,400
Therefore I'm going to do my
part to make this the best

455
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:36,840
strategy possible.
Yep.

456
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,640
It's it's the only way.
Like to me, that is like the

457
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,160
definition of love.
It's.

458
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,520
Right.
It's, it's love, it's trust,

459
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,520
it's alignment, It's, you know,
it's show versus tell, right?

460
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,840
Like it's modeling the best
behavior that we can for our

461
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,640
family, for our kids and really
for ourselves.

462
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,960
Yeah.
And I would be remiss if I

463
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,040
didn't bring up .4 from this
letter which is recognized.

464
00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,040
True misalignment issues early
and escalate them immediately.

465
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,560
Sometimes teams, kids, families
have different objectives and

466
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,840
fundamentally different views.
They are not aligned.

467
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:16,840
No amount of discussion, no
number of meetings will resolve

468
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,320
that deep misalignment without
escalation.

469
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,680
The default dispute resolution
mechanism for this scenario is

470
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,280
exhaustion.
Whoever has more stamina carries

471
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,880
the decision and that is when
disagree and commit does not

472
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,840
work.
That is when mom and dad get the

473
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240
say right.
Because I want to.

474
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,600
Have a play date with so and so.
No, I'm, I want to go see my

475
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,080
friends there.
Well, we can't go to both

476
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,360
places.
There's, there's no, there's

477
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,680
misalignment here.
Everyone wants their own thing.

478
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:46,400
I don't.
Think that's a good?

479
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,080
I think that's an example where
disagree and commit can really,

480
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:50,920
no, that's fair, can really come
in.

481
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,320
I'm trying to think of like a of
1 where there's like true, true

482
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,280
misalignment.
I mean, I hope that in our

483
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,880
family there isn't really like
that's the goal, right, Is that

484
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,520
if we are aligning on the idea
that Neufeld's disagree and

485
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,720
commit right, then I'm not sure
that we will ever get to a point

486
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:15,440
where two people are so deeply
entrenched that we cannot come

487
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,640
to some type of of agreement.
Sure.

488
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,360
I think that misalignment is
going to likely show up more

489
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,040
with our kids and their friends
and where they need to recognize

490
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,520
when their friend is not going
to budget because they have

491
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,160
every incentive to stay the
leader in the game for, you

492
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,480
know, for the next two months
and that nothing's going to

493
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640
change no matter what you do.
There's no disagree and commit

494
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,000
here, unless you just want to be
the pawn in their game and you

495
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,120
either need to go play a
different game or you need to

496
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,160
escalate it.
Yeah, I mean, I think that

497
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,240
disagree and commit is primarily
a family tool.

498
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Yeah.
There are.

499
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,520
I think it's group projects too,
you know, like.

500
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,200
At work for sure, and at school.
At school as they get older.

501
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,200
Yeah, yeah, at school as they
get older.

502
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,360
But I think for now, disagree
and commit is a is a tool to

503
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,320
create family cohesion and a
sense of belonging where no

504
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,320
longer and we've already started
to see it, but no longer is it

505
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,600
acceptable for the kid that
doesn't get their way to drag

506
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,280
their feet and pout because
that's not what we do here.

507
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,920
That's not how we show up.
That's right, right.

508
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:32,520
And so I do think that if we can
strike that optimal balance

509
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,880
between not just going with the
flow, but not being so

510
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,080
disagreeable that it turns
people off, that they will be

511
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,560
able to kind of learn that here
in this low stakes environment

512
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,880
and then execute outside in the
world where they don't

513
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,800
necessarily have that
foundation.

514
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,200
And that connection where
disagree and commit is, is the

515
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,440
primary like course of action,
right.

516
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,880
It's, I think of it primarily as
a family tool in this context.

517
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,160
Yeah.
It's a badge of honor to be able

518
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,080
to do that.
Absolutely.

519
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,080
It shows maturity, it shows that
you believe in the team more

520
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,760
than the individual, and it
shows that you know next time if

521
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,600
there is a situation where
someone needs to disagree and

522
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640
commit with you, that they're
more likely to.

523
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,520
Right.
And that's the point.

524
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,440
And like I fully expect us to
have like a 95% failure rate at

525
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,040
first on this, but it is
something that we've already

526
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,360
started saying to the kids that
we've already made a few

527
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,800
decisions in that way because
that's what you do.

528
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:43,720
That's how you failed.
Like that's what it means to

529
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,840
show up for your teammates in
this way, kind.

530
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,040
Of want to get like hats made or
something like that.

531
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,160
I know right?
Disagree and I'm.

532
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,920
Disagreeing and committing.
So let everyone voice their

533
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,720
view, choose a direction, and
then commit to making that

534
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,320
choice as successful as possible
as a team.

535
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,560
That's right.
OK, great.

536
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,800
So should we recap the
takeaways?

537
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,320
How do we pull this all
together?

538
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,520
OK, great.
So I think first value

539
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,560
disagreement as an opportunity
to build belonging, right,

540
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,080
speaking to the psychological
safety piece and sharpen

541
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:26,000
thinking, keep conflicts about
ideas, not the personal, not

542
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,800
identity, right?
So that's a big one for us, I

543
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,800
think is really a big experiment
for us.

544
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,560
We'll be continuing to encourage
the kids to not devolve into

545
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,760
name calling immediately, like
try something different, right?

546
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840
And then three, practice,
disagree and commit as a family.

547
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,560
And you know, for us, I am going
to work to make this part of our

548
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,960
core identity because I I think
this tool is that important to

549
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,040
connection and belonging as a
family.

550
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,880
So do I.
I'm here for work.

551
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:58,600
Great.
I love that.

552
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,680
So what are you taking away from
this conversation?

553
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,280
I'm taking away that disagreeing
respectfully can be a power

554
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,880
move.
Like like you, it can come from

555
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,320
a place of strength, not from a
place of weakness or not from a

556
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,800
passive aggressive perspective
that making decisions with

557
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,960
imperfect information is what we
do as a team.

558
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,800
And I think that this is all
about adaptability, right?

559
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,400
At at the end of the day, what
we're, what we're trying to

560
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,120
teach our kids here is that they
can play many roles.

561
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,400
And I think especially for our
girls, they can show up in the

562
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,880
world as, as being strong willed
without being labeled a Karen.

563
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,200
And I, I, I think that they
could certainly fall in that

564
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,640
trap.
And I really don't want them to.

565
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,560
How about you?
Yeah, for sure.

566
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,120
Well, really for me, along those
along those lines, I I keep

567
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,960
going back to this James Hollis
quote of the opposite of

568
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,680
reflexive goodness is not the
bad, but the authentic.

569
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,000
And I think that I definitely,
especially in my younger years,

570
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,240
have been so self-righteous, so
passive aggressive when because

571
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600
I didn't know how to disagree
respectfully.

572
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,920
And so now that I think we have
this framework about keeping

573
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,280
things about ideas and time
horizons and frame of reference

574
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:19,400
and methods as opposed to
personal attacks, you know, so

575
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,040
much of what we've done in the
past couple of episodes have

576
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,160
been bringing these shadow
things into the light.

577
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,600
And I keep thinking about how
they're just not that scary once

578
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,280
you make them explicit, once you
bring them into the light and

579
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,640
talk about them and say, yeah,
you know what?

580
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,200
Like I'm not that good at
expressing disagreement

581
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,760
respectfully or effectively, or
I'm too agreeable here, right?

582
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,680
I think that in so many of these
things, I personally, and I

583
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,560
think it's probably true for all
members of our family, there are

584
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,920
places where I'm super passive
aggressive and then there are

585
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,640
places where I'm too agreeable.
And so just kind of finding that

586
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:02,600
optimal space where it's not
that big of a deal.

587
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,760
Like, I don't have to win every
argument.

588
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,360
We don't always have to choose
what I want to do on a Saturday

589
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,760
morning.
I value the people in this

590
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,719
family.
I value the sense of belonging

591
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:21,719
that I feel in this family so
much more so than I do any

592
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,360
conflict that we're having right
now.

593
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,560
And so I kind of feel like I
have a little tool kit the way

594
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,400
that we do with heart repair
around how can we be in conflict

595
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:37,560
and express our disagreement
respectfully and effectively and

596
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,639
using it to build connection
now, which feels really good.

597
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,040
Really good.
Disagree and commit.

598
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,080
Disagree and commit love, you
goosey.

599
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,320
Love you Goosey.
Hey guys, if you're still here,

600
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,040
you're definitely our kind of
person.

601
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,040
Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important

602
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,560
Thing.
If this episode resonated with

603
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,000
you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your

604
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,200
podcasts and share it with
someone else.

605
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:03,920
Building family culture on
purpose.