TMIT 36: Breaking The Rules Together – Harnessing Trickster Energy as a Family

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Welcome to the most important
thing.

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I'm Danielle.
And I'm Greg, and together we're

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fighting household sickness.
Indeed we are.

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Yeah.
So far I'm the only one that's

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winning.
It's a it's a battle you are

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winning and.
I'm staying strong, lots of

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vitamins.
This this fall season, right?

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Like all the things.
Yeah, Maverick has been sick

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every weekend since he started
school.

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Yep.
Anyway, we are exploring

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together family, leadership and
how we build culture at home.

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Indeed we are.
Yeah, this is fun.

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Yeah, so today we have a bit of
a topsy turvy episode for you

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let.
Me lead us in.

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OK So what do you do when your
son says to you I am going to

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Legoland for my 4th birthday and
I'm going to ride all the roller

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coasters and you measure him and
he is 1 inch shy of the height

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requirement of 42 inches what do
you do?

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Do you play the goody 2 shoes
family and say oh sorry buddy,

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not this year.
Hopefully when you're 5, yeah.

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Or do you show up and hope for
the best?

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Come on, please let him ride.
I'm sure it'll work this time.

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Yeah, hoping for goodness in
humanity by workers that have

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absolutely no power and
authority over that limit,

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right.
Or do you find the absolute

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highest shoes that Amazon can
buy and stick them on him so

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that he meets that 42 inch
height requirement that day?

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That is door #3 and that's the
one we're going to be exploring

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today, which is called Trickster
Energy.

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Yeah, it's something about.
So when we talk about trickster

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energy, what we really mean is
how to be creative and maintain

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our agency when we are stuck in
a problem.

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That's not really a rigidly
required rule, right?

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But something that can be
navigated around, how to do that

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creatively as a family.
I think that the trick here and

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the reason why we wanted to talk
about it is because it's really

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easy to like if Trickster is the
ideal kind of in in the center

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where things are optimally
balanced.

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On the one hand, there's me and
the way that I grew up, which is

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like abiding by every rule no
matter what and almost building

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like resentment towards the man
or towards because they wouldn't

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give you what you want, right?
But then on the other hand,

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which is something that we've
fallen into more recently as we

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have talked about Trickster
energy as a family, is daddy

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says I can't do cartwheels in my
room, I'm going to use trickster

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energy and do it anyway.
Just just, you know, needlessly

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rule breaking if you will, which
is not trickster energy, right?

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What we're really talking about
today is playfully and

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creatively changing that feeling
of helplessness, that feeling of

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stuckness that we can get when
we can't find a logical solution

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to a problem, and turning it
into something that is creative

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and maybe temporarily sets aside
some of our values, but is in

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service to growth ultimately.
For sure.

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So this is a tough one to
explain to the kids, it's a

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tough one to explain to
ourselves.

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But we want to do an episode on
it because of exactly that,

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right?
Because it's so important to get

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out of our goody 2 shoes selves
at a young age and notice that

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the world around us may not
always cooperate with the way

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that we see things.
And that doesn't mean that we're

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necessarily wrong.
Yeah, it's also a conversation

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that we really needed to have as
a family because otherwise

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Hunter would be yelling at the
top of her lungs about our

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little sneaky rule breaking
things like sneaking water

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bottles into FAU basketball
games.

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We cannot have for all of
eternity our child as

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whistleblower when we are trying
to leverage strict strategy,

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right?
We need to share it and really

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name it.
It's an important conversation

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to have with all of our kids
because there are going to be

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times where mommy and daddy
break the quote UN quote rules

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and teaching them to trust their
inner knowing around what is a

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really important rule for safety
versus what is some arbitrary

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rule that folks came up with to
keep peace among the masses.

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Yeah, or just draw a line in the
sand, like 42 inches on the

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roller coaster, Right, Right.
And So what do we want to

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explore in today's episode and
what it what are we going to try

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to get out of this by the end?
Yeah, I think that the the way

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we think about Trickster energy
is that the goal is to maintain

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agency and creativity when it
comes to problem solving, to be

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able to think outside the box.
And so takeaways really are

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around learning to trust
ourselves in the moment of

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helplessness.
And then once we kind of shift

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into that mindset and say, OK,
I'm going to work to get unstuck

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creatively, it's learning to
play with the problem.

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And I think the beauty of
playing with the problem is that

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when we do it as a family and we
have group buy in, it's

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extremely bonding.
Yes it is, and we all have to be

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aligned for this to really work
anyway, otherwise the weakest

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link is going to we.
Shout it from the rooftops that

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we have water bottles.
Right.

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We're going to end up with no
water bottles.

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We'll be in the back of the
line.

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We'll have parked in the far
parking lot.

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You know, all the things that we
kind of finagle our way into

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making life a little bit more
convenient.

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We're going to those.
Those are not going to work for

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us if everyone's not on the same
page.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And so I think maybe we can
quickly define Trickster, which

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is a trickster itself is a
dishonest person who uses clever

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means to cheat others out of
something of value.

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And so, you know, I don't think
that we're trying to teach

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dishonesty here, right?
But we are trying to tap into

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that trickster energy sometimes
in order to cleverly pursue our

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goals.
Yep, exactly.

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I wrote a couple things down
here too.

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The trickster is a symbol of the
duality within us all,

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reflecting the tension between
our conscious and unconscious

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minds.
Oh, yes, right.

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Yeah.
And so a lot of these ideas that

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we're pulling from just to give
you kind of the research backing

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really do come from Jungian
psychology and mythology.

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As I've mentioned on previous
episodes, my favorite Jungian

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psychologist is named Lisa
Marciano, and she wrote a book

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called The Vital Spark in which
she talks about trickster

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energy.
The to expand on this duality

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and the conscious and
unconscious mind, The trickster

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represents the ongoing struggle
between order and chaos.

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And it reminds us that growth
often requires the destruction

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of old patterns.
So I love that because old

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patterns are not always going to
serve us in the future.

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And in order to bring this
trickster energy to the table,

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we need to do like, push away
that old energy that says you

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must, you know, you like, you
can't fight the man on this

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topic.
And sometimes we grow more

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believability where we're able
to fight the man on that topic

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or we're able to show up with
new information or the world

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changes.
And something about the world

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that changes means that the
rules that were set five years

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ago no longer necessarily apply.
But they haven't been updated.

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Yeah, right.
Absolutely.

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I think there's also a piece of
trickster energy that is a

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little bit about, you know,
about envy in the sense that

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sometimes we can recognize
others acting with trickster

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energy and they make us
uncomfortable because we can

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think like, oh, they took the
easy way out, right?

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But really what we're not.
And I think that's the way that

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I have felt many a time because
I've been unwilling to tap into

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that myself.
And so earlier we had said in an

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earlier episode, we'd said that
Carl Jung has this beautiful

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quote, is that understanding the
darkness in ourselves helps us

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understand the darkness in
others.

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And I think it's so important
that we kind of bring this into

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the light because it's not that
big of a deal.

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And once we get comfortable with
subverting the rules when it

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isn't, when the stakes aren't
that high and it ultimately

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serves us, it just brings a much
more playful, playful nature to

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to life.
Absolutely.

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Can I give you an example?
For sure.

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OK, so just to finish the story,
by the way, we did go to

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Legoland for Maverick's
birthday.

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Mommy did find super high shoes
and he was able to ride all the

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rides, right?
One of which was this sweet

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roller coaster, our favorite of
the day called the Great Lego

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Race.
And it just happened that we

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were on a day where they were
almost no lines.

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And so we rode the coaster
multiple times, me and the girls

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and you and Maverick, right?
And the second time we went on

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and we were going to ride the
third.

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I, there was no one in line, but
there was an attendant about 20

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feet away.
After we got off the coaster for

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the second time and I looked, I
looked at the line and I looked

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at the attendant.
I was like, man, we can just hop

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this line no problem.
Like we can just go from the

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exit.
We can skip the entrance, skip

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all the, all the rails and just
get back in line no problem.

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There's nobody here, but I was
afraid and I was like afraid to,

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I don't know what I was afraid
of, but I just my goody 2 shoes

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took over and I looked at the
attendant and I was like, can we

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go through?
And of course she was like, no,

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you're not really supposed to.
And like wagged her finger.

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But you guys, I totally could
have just gone through and my

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kids could have just gone
through with me.

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Do you know what I mean?
And I know that's what you would

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have done.
And so there's still this

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something that is inside of me
that like is so afraid of rules

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that even though, even when I
see a rule where there is no

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downside to breaking it and, and
some upside to breaking it,

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right, I, I often times just
like hesitate and don't trust

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myself.
And I think it's so important

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for me at growth as a human, but
also as a mom to just own that

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and just be like, you know what?
No, Like, there's no reason why

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I need to take the the couple
extra minutes to go all the way

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outside of the ride and then
follow all of the guardrails

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back in.
Hunter Jade, let's just hop over

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the fence.
Yeah.

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I want to be that person.
I want to be that person.

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You know, like no progress
happens by following the rules.

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And if there's a rule that that
we disagree with, it is our job

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almost to test that rule and see
if see what happens, right.

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So like, I, I just think of
everything from the Underground

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Railroad to like Travis Kalanick
and Uber, like all about like

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these are, you know, they're
terrible that those are in the

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same sentence.
But they really are like Uber

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testing New York City and just
deploying drivers in cars

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without talking to the TLC to
see what happens to have

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rideshares.
TLC be the the.

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Taxi.
The.

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Delivery company right like that
and and doing that in every city

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like that is how we now have
Uber like as the default and

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also Uber hailing Lyfts to
compete so that Lyft wouldn't be

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in the places where Uber was.
That's like some serious

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trickster energy there.
Yeah, absolutely.

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At first I'm like, no progress
gets made without breaking the

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rules.
But I hear, I hear what you're

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saying.
I think also that sometimes in

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breaking the rules, it really
broadens our understanding of

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what's possible.
For sure, right.

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Yeah.
I mean, we, we talked about it a

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little bit this weekend at
family meeting.

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Where with the kids?
OK, what are what are the rules

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that apply in the universe?
It's just what nature confines

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us to, right.
It's it's the laws of physics.

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And so a favorite quote by Elon
Musk that says the only rules

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are those dictated by the laws
of physics.

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Everything else is a
recommendation.

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And so I love this because
questioning everything and

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thinking of it as a
recommendation.

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And then if you know anything
about Elon's algorithm, where he

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goes and requires his staff to
find the person that made the

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requirement in the government,
the actual person, not the

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department, to pull for
believability right down to that

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individual to see why that rule
was made and if they can do

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something about it.
That is what Trickster Energy is

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all about.
It's not about tricking people

227
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,120
into doing something that serves
you.

228
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,200
It's about questioning
everything until you get the

229
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,440
answer that you really need,
which is can I do this or can I

230
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,600
not?
And sometimes I think the answer

231
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:11,520
is within yourself, like Elon
Musk.

232
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:12,720
Companies aside.
Sure.

233
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:18,960
Going back to my example of the
like deferring to the attendant

234
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,720
at on the roller coaster ride,
it's the same idea as Maverick

235
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,120
being 42 inches and why we
couldn't go with this, just this

236
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,040
hope and this dream that they'll
let him ride the ride because

237
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,560
he's 41 inches.
Because these people, they don't

238
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:36,560
have the power to say anything
other than what is in the rules,

239
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,440
right?
And so if I am giving my power

240
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,880
away to someone who has so
little power, right, what does

241
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,480
that say about me?
What does that say about who I'm

242
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,240
willing to give my power over
to, which is such a common theme

243
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,360
for me.
I think that this idea of who

244
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,400
actually holds the power in the
situation when you when you have

245
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,200
a problem to solve is such an
important one, and whether or

246
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,280
not the person that you have
that you're talking with is

247
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,160
really able to change things or
not.

248
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,960
Yeah.
So in going back to this idea of

249
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,920
envy and me seeing Trickster
energy and others and thinking

250
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,520
that they took this easy way
out, I do really think that by

251
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,440
exploring the darker side and
doing things that make me

252
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,640
uncomfortable, which you usually
lead me to in this way, I'm

253
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,840
saying to myself, like I see
that ability to be playful and

254
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,120
kind of color outside the lines
and do something that's a little

255
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,480
bit deviating from the norm,
right?

256
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:44,280
And saying, I can contain you.
This is not going to get out of

257
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,400
control and I'm going to become
some social deviant, right?

258
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,240
This is saying I am allowed and
I want my children to know that

259
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,120
they are allowed to do things
that's a little bit off the

260
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,040
beaten path, off the straight
and narrow and still be a good

261
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,200
person and still be.
And I think that that is.

262
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,720
Trying to make change and like,
if you're gonna make any change

263
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,480
in the world, you need to have
this skill honed and be able to

264
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,800
to really deploy it where
necessary.

265
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,680
It's amazing to me, like I
didn't know when we started this

266
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,320
path around things like
shrewdness and anger and this

267
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,440
darker side or murkier side of
family culture, So much of this

268
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,360
stuff is in service of growth
and in service of change, not

269
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,120
just inside of our home, but big
change, right?

270
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,320
And so harnessing these energies
I think can be so powerful.

271
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,880
And I didn't necessarily know
that that was going to be the

272
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,200
case.
I thought that it was going to

273
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,400
be more about just learning to
contain them, if you will.

274
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,960
And I think that that generally
can be the first step, right,

275
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,440
But that the second step is that
they are used to in service of

276
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:52,920
growth.
Completely.

277
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,000
And that's, that's really cool.
It is really cool.

278
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,240
That's really cool.
And sometimes, Trickster energy

279
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,400
can get you to a place that
excellence never could.

280
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,640
Well, and when you think about
the traits of an entrepreneur,

281
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,560
this is typically one of them.
We call it relentlessly

282
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,960
resourceful.
But really, if you look back at

283
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,280
the early childhood of a lot of
entrepreneurs, it's coloring

284
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,320
outside of the wands.
It's doing things that it's

285
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,600
doing things anyway, even though
people told you not to do them.

286
00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,960
And that's really what kind of
makes for an entrepreneur in

287
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,600
today's in today's society.
I love that and I, it is

288
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,560
something that I think is so
important.

289
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,080
If you guys haven't noticed,
we've kind of flipped the

290
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,360
experimentation, if you will, to
we're actually starting to talk

291
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:38,560
to the kids and experiment with
the topics before we get on the

292
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,560
mic.
Yeah, which has been fun too.

293
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,400
But yeah, I just think that it's
such.

294
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,600
Workshopping topics and seeing
you know how it how it shows up

295
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:48,760
in our family.
Exactly.

296
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,160
It's just, it's been such an
important piece of the puzzle

297
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:58,720
because I certainly love to play
by the rules and can get in a

298
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,040
huff seeing people not playing
by the rules.

299
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,839
And I don't think that that is
really in service to my growth.

300
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,200
And I want to teach our children
to be more playful about it.

301
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,079
It's.
So important that our kids and

302
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:18,720
we embody this throughout our
lives and name it because this

303
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,319
is not mischievous.
This is not being, you know, a

304
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,839
troublemaker.
This is showing up when change

305
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,920
is needed or when you believe
that there's an opportunity to

306
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,520
make change and make a
difference.

307
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,280
Yeah.
And it's not like talking out of

308
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,960
turn in school.
It's not like, you know, pushing

309
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,080
kids on the playground because
you didn't get your way.

310
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,920
Like there are ways to handle
this and this naming this energy

311
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,000
often with our families is so
important because we want to

312
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,600
make sure that they get this
message that this is the type of

313
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:56,480
energy that can be OK, even if
it's not necessarily following

314
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,000
the rules.
Yeah, I think key to this

315
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,080
conversation is that trickster
energy must be guided by a moral

316
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,040
compass.
Bingo, right?

317
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:13,400
And we are teaching our family
to be discerning, to be shrewd,

318
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:14,200
right?
Yeah.

319
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,160
In trusting when our trickster
energy is really involving

320
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,280
temporarily placing aside a
value in service of growth,

321
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,520
yeah.
So one thing I just want to

322
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,520
bring up is we don't have
experience with this.

323
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,320
I I wonder how too much
trickster energy in a family

324
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,040
like can be walked back a little
bit to point out where it's

325
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,520
valuable and where it is too
much, because I do believe that

326
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,960
you can over index on this as a,
as a child, especially like a

327
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,720
first born that colors outside
of the lines like I was.

328
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,080
So I'm just wondering like we're
not having this problem in our

329
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:49,560
family.
I.

330
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,720
Disagree, I think we are having
this problem with Maverick.

331
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:53,920
Interesting.
Yeah.

332
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,880
Yeah, he lies a lot.
And it's been hard to figure out

333
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,400
what his lying is in service of,
you know, and because he will.

334
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,360
You told me every night when you
say goodnight, he says X hurts,

335
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:11,960
something hurts, leg, throat
stuff, whatever it is, right?

336
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,760
And that's like a need for
attention and so like.

337
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,400
A tick.
At this point, it's weird.

338
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,440
He's also a little obsessive
about things, yeah.

339
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,520
So I think that he is our child
that is willing to create

340
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:29,280
mischief and doesn't have a
problem with not telling the

341
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,560
truth, which is new for me
because the girls, they don't do

342
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,640
that.
And so it goes back to this

343
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,480
moral compass piece where it's
like, my love, you need to know

344
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,160
that you are safe here.
And then if you want more time

345
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,840
with me, you can tell me.
You don't need to pretend like

346
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,480
you have some type of ache or
you need medicine in order for

347
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,880
us to spend time together like
that is an example of a rule

348
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,720
that like shouldn't be broken.
That's for.

349
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,080
Sure.
And this, this is exactly what

350
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,400
I'm talking about.
That's exactly what I'm talking

351
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,320
about.
Because it can, it can get

352
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,800
really confusing, especially if
you think everything is in

353
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,400
service of a need that you have.
It can get really confusing as a

354
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,080
child, like I was confused in
first grade and I was set

355
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,680
straight pretty quickly that I
cannot counterfeit classroom

356
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,440
dollars.
In order to do that in order

357
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,240
with you.
Still stuck with me.

358
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,160
I counterfeited like the
teacher's currency, which

359
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,560
allowed for some kind of prize
or something like that.

360
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:30,720
And I was like, oh, I'm going to
go home.

361
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,800
I'm going to make these and then
I'm going to cash them in.

362
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,640
And we, you know, she called in
my parents.

363
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,040
And then that was an important
lesson that stuck with me, which

364
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,680
like these were rules that I was
not to, to to break can.

365
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,920
I ask you about that.
Do you feel like, did you feel

366
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,680
guilt about that or did you feel
shame?

367
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,160
So I felt guilt about not about
counterfeiting them, but about

368
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,040
saying that I got them from her.
So when pressed and she's like,

369
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,120
where did you get those?
And I'm like from you.

370
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:03,960
That's where the guilt hits.
Guilt or shame though, like I

371
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,480
made a mistake, I am a mistake.
Oh, guilt.

372
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,440
Guilt.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

373
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,360
I think that would have been a
really big shame set up for me.

374
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,000
So I'm just maybe for another
episode, but something to unpack

375
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,160
as to how you were able to not
let that kind of seep into your

376
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,040
identity well.
I think that I didn't want to be

377
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,000
a person that counterfeited
that, that tried to cheat the

378
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,600
system unfairly against, against
everybody and get caught and,

379
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:42,520
you know, try to blame like a
misunderstanding when I I

380
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,760
clearly should have just come
clean.

381
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,280
So you feel like the creating of
the counterfeit bills was

382
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,280
innovative or like AI mean like
a clever move It's.

383
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,600
More innocent than than.
Than lying to the teacher.

384
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,600
Correct.
Got it.

385
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,320
So that's where the line was
drawn for you.

386
00:21:58,360 --> 00:21:59,120
Yeah, that.
Makes sense.

387
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,920
No, I remember that.
You know that one.

388
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,680
That one, really.
Maybe you should have fessed up

389
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,160
when she asked you.
Actually, if I if I, if I think

390
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,360
about it and I go back through
all the things that I feel badly

391
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:11,400
about as a child, yeah, it's the
lie.

392
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,280
It's the lying about the thing
that I did.

393
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,760
It's not actually about the
thing that I.

394
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,960
Did interesting.
Yeah, I like.

395
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,560
That some that I never came
clean on.

396
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,320
Because the lie was believed.
Because the lie was believed

397
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,040
correct?
Yeah.

398
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:32,240
Anyway, difference between
getting what I want and using

399
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,000
trickster energy to be a change
agent?

400
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:44,160
Yes, yes, right.
Yes, and that's what I want to

401
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,720
drive home in this family.
Yeah.

402
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,320
I think Tricks for Energy is a
cooperative.

403
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,080
It should not be an individual
sport for a child.

404
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,200
Interesting, I like that.
That's a good heuristic.

405
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:57,240
I think that it's a team bonding
activity.

406
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,320
Yes, and that and this family is
a team and we will support the

407
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,480
stress testing of whatever
recommendation it is.

408
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,720
Yeah.
And not just say, oh, you have

409
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,080
to follow that because.
And that, that is something that

410
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,360
I can like, solemnly swear I
will uphold.

411
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,440
Great is you can spearhead.
Is is just saying, hey, let's go

412
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,200
find out why that is, because
that's an.

413
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,400
That's an important thing to
know how to do.

414
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:21,440
Yes.
Right.

415
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,200
But if you're going to break
that rule and not involve us and

416
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,440
lie about it or be deceitful,
that's no longer in this

417
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,000
category of us as a team.
That is a selfish act.

418
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,840
Yep.
OK, So we've talked about

419
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,560
trickster energy as far as what
it is and what it's not.

420
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:45,200
And I'd like to I have two
takeaways for how to really

421
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,280
channel tricks or energy.
And the first is learning to

422
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,840
trust ourselves in the moment of
helplessness.

423
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,840
So when we feel really stuck
inside of a problem, instead of

424
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,600
being extremely helpless and
maybe even resentful about the

425
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,280
woe is me, the world is as it
is, recognizing that as a moment

426
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:12,520
to really tap into our power and
open up our thinking, if you

427
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,080
will.
So recognizing that moment of

428
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,640
helplessness and thinking, I,
you know, I can figure this out.

429
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,200
And then the second is really
learning to play with the

430
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,440
problem.
So if the first one is the self

431
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,720
trust and saying like, I can
take care of myself, I can

432
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,840
figure this out when the moment
arises and we feel really stuck.

433
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,280
Then the second is once we trust
ourselves, we can get really

434
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,320
creative and think about how to
get playful here, right?

435
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,120
And through this, we're really,
I think we're modeling so much

436
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,680
of the more polished side that
we talk about, right?

437
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:51,120
Like courage and adaptability
under any circumstances.

438
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,840
Yeah, absolutely.
So resilience if.

439
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,840
You I almost feel like there's a
worksheet here that our kids can

440
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,920
fill out, which is like, what's
the thing?

441
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,120
What does it bring up for me?
What do you think this protects

442
00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:05,480
me against?
Why is this here?

443
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,520
Who do you think?
Oh my God, I don't like this

444
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,680
worksheet.
Really.

445
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,200
Yes, I don't want that
worksheet.

446
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,840
Well, it's not for you, it's for
our kids.

447
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,200
I know it's a lot though for our
kids.

448
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,200
Yeah, but I do think so.
No, no worksheets.

449
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,920
I don't love when one of our
kids comes home and says so, and

450
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,040
so is the leader of this game,
and I'm gonna be the leader

451
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,160
next.
But you know what?

452
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,400
They changed the rules the day
before I was gonna be the

453
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,360
leader.
Yeah, but that's normal.

454
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,280
I know, but I don't.
I'm fine with the fact that the

455
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,760
other child did it.
I don't want our child's

456
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,760
response to be OK.
Now I have to wait two more

457
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,520
months until I can be the leader
because no, it's never going to

458
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:42,920
happen.
You didn't take away the right

459
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,320
thing.
Yes.

460
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,320
Well, it's so interesting to me
because a couple of years ago at

461
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,200
the at the graduation ceremony
for the kids, they described

462
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,520
them all as animals and Hunter
was hard working as a honey bee.

463
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,120
I remember right.
And so this child that you

464
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:05,240
mentioned was clever as a crow.
And I remember thinking to

465
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,280
myself, damn, like if there's
one thing that I really want to

466
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,600
help Hunter cultivate by the
time she's that kids age because

467
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,840
I want our teachers to see her
as clever as a crow.

468
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,320
Absolutely.
Like, those are goals for me

469
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,840
too.
Like, I have to be clever as a

470
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,360
crow, you know?
Yeah, I don't even know that

471
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:25,640
crows are clever.
But whatever it is, it's like,

472
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,320
clever being the descriptor is
really valuable, I think.

473
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,880
And not to get too off on a
tangent, but in the world of AI,

474
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:40,080
cleverness is going to be king.
Way more than the hard working,

475
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,160
I mean hard workings, very
important, don't get me wrong,

476
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,080
but the cleverness and thinking
outside the box, yeah.

477
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,920
That's it's a really important
aspect of character, right?

478
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,800
It's a really important aspect
of character.

479
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Yeah.
OK, so tricks your energy, learn

480
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,920
to trust yourself in the moment
of helplessness, which is

481
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,960
definitely I need to work on
that and learn to play with the

482
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,960
problem.
And then a couple of experiments

483
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,400
for how to bring Turks your
energy into our family.

484
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,120
The first one.
I mean, these are almost always

485
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:14,320
the same, right?
It's model it ourselves, talk

486
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,040
about it and tell stories about
it.

487
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Yep right.
So those are really the

488
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,120
experiments model the playful
problem solving.

489
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,840
And I love what you had said
about let's focus on trickster

490
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,720
energy as a team one because we
get all those bonding benefits

491
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,720
of doing something a little bit,
you know, outside of the

492
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,360
ordinary, outside of that
straight and narrow together,

493
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,920
but also because they really are
still learning right.

494
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,920
I am too, but like, the moral
compass piece isn't necessarily

495
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,760
fully online when you're 8/6 and
four.

496
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,160
Yep, right.
So let's lean into trickster

497
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,120
energy when we're together.
Let's.

498
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,960
If you have a problem that you
think you can solve creatively,

499
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,920
great.
Let's let's workshop it as a

500
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,480
team.
Yeah, I love it.

501
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,000
OK, and then the second one tell
stories of tricksters.

502
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,240
Yep, right.
And so I can just think of a

503
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,640
couple in like Disney kind of
folklore would be Puss in Boots

504
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,720
and the Mulan.
I think Mulan is like the only

505
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,120
Disney Princess that I think is
worth her salt, honestly,

506
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,960
because she temporarily her
father, she wanted to go to

507
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,640
battle.
Her father said she couldn't

508
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,360
because she was a woman.
So she temporarily put aside her

509
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,840
values of love and respect and
loyalty for her father, right?

510
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,360
To impersonate a man and go to
battle, to disguise.

511
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,320
So she disguised herself in war,
not for rebellion, but in

512
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,120
service of her growth and the
growth of her clan.

513
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,680
Yep, right.
And then Harriet Tubman and the

514
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,360
Underground Railroad is also a
beautiful story of, as we all

515
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,000
know, of change and cleverness.
Yep, right.

516
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,440
Absolutely.
Talk about rules that were made

517
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,160
to be broken.
For sure.

518
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,640
So I think that these, and I've
seen, you know, just in talking

519
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,280
about anger with, with the girls
around Taylor Swift taking back

520
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,000
her music and stuff, they
they've talked about that in the

521
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,160
past couple of weeks.
Like they recognize that we can

522
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,280
use anger to make change.
And so I think that the power of

523
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,520
story cannot be underestimated.
What especially when it comes in

524
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,480
the in the family unit?
Completely.

525
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,680
Yeah.
So in closing, I just want

526
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,240
everyone to a quick
visualization.

527
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,640
So this is a complete metaphor,
but it's the metaphor is so

528
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,720
perfect because we've all been
in this situation.

529
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,560
So imagine you're waiting to get
on the highway or off the

530
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,240
highway.
You're in a exit lane and a car

531
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,760
cuts in front of you, and then
another car and then another

532
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,240
car.
And you see cars cutting in

533
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,360
front up ahead.
And now, you know, this line is

534
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,200
just backing up, backing up,
backing up.

535
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,960
You're getting irate.
You're just like, oh, my God.

536
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:06,040
Now, from your perspective,
under what circumstance could

537
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,600
you be one of those cars?
Yeah.

538
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,240
If you are showing up in a
situation where you feel like

539
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,280
you need to cut in for a reason
and you feel that that is

540
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,840
compelling enough, like, don't
always be the person that cuts

541
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,400
in, right?
But if you're running late in in

542
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,800
a literal sense and it's an
extremely urgent appointment or

543
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,480
you know it's a life changing
situation or whatever.

544
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,960
But in another sense, if you're
going to experience far more joy

545
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,400
with your children by sneaking
under that gate and getting

546
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,160
right back in line.
You really need to have a bag

547
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,440
that weighs 60 lbs and not 50
lbs.

548
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,400
Go to the boom, go to the
curbside, check in and give the

549
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:48,440
guy a tip.
Exactly.

550
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,040
Go to the curbside.
So just like in life, we all

551
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,480
have those moments where we're
waiting patiently in the line

552
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,680
and we all have those moments
where we need to be cutting in

553
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,480
line.
Let's make sure to use those

554
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,120
chips, those bullets where we
need to be cutting in line,

555
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,800
where those are upholding our
values and the things that we

556
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,080
believe in and we're we're not
self-righteous about them, but

557
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,480
where we believe that a change
needs.

558
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:13,640
To be made.
Maybe we're righteous about.

559
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:14,960
Them Maybe we're righteous.
Yeah.

560
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,200
So it's about, you know, when
does it make sense to cut in

561
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,840
line, especially because I know
you told the story from the

562
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,360
person who's, like, sitting
there waiting.

563
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:22,880
Yeah.
But so many people are on their

564
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,360
phones these days, not paying
any attention.

565
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,840
And I know having a husband that
likes to cut in line often, that

566
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,360
nine times out of 10, nobody
gets mad.

567
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Nobody even notices.
Yeah, because it's not that big

568
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,600
of a deal.
It's not that big of a deal,

569
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,840
That's right.
Cool, cool.

570
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480
So we hope that you all will
consider playing with the

571
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,240
Trickster energy.
Yeah, it has been so much fun

572
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,240
and it has made me feel lighter
and less stuck.

573
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,800
And so I hope we can bring some
of that lightness to all of you.

574
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,040
More Bugs Bunny, less Elmer
Fudd.

575
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,440
Something like that.
Love you goosy.

576
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,000
Love you goosy.
Hey guys, if you're still here,

577
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,720
you're definitely our kind of
person.

578
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,720
Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important

579
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,240
Thing.
If this episode resonated with

580
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,720
you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your

581
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,880
podcasts and share it with
someone else.

582
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,600
Building family culture on
purpose.