TMIT 34: “Read the Room, Kid!” — Cultivating Shrewdness as a Family

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Welcome to the most important
thing.

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I'm Danielle.
And I'm Greg, and together we're

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exploring plastic surgery of the
stars.

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How did Kris Jenner get that
facelift looking so good?

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You love her.
Well, I mean, we watch a lot of

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Bravo and there are a lot of bad
plastic surgery jobs on Bravo,

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so kudos Kris Jenner.
But no, we are not exploring

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Kris Jenner.
Maybe the Kardashians someday.

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Because together we are.
Extraordinary family.

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Interesting.
Together, we are exploring

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family, leadership and how we
build culture at home.

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Yes, yes, we are.
And today we're going to talk

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about some of the murkier side
of family culture, which I'm

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actually really excited for.
It's not something that comes

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naturally to me.
It probably, it's not surprising

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to most of our listeners that we
spent this first six months

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studying family culture.
Kind of the more shiny aspects

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of things like joy and
compassion and belonging.

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These really are the things that
come naturally to me.

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I should say the things that I
really want to focus on

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naturally.
But if our goal isn't just joy

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and connection, but it's also
wisdom and resilience, then it

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really makes sense for us to
spend some time wading into the

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shadows, if you will.
And for our first topic on this

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subject, we wanted to discuss
envy and Greg's favorite word,

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shrewdness.
Why don't you tell them how you

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feel about the word shrewdness?
Well, I was like, oh, is this

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related to a shrew like in The
Taming of the Shrew?

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And yes, it is.
Yes, it is.

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And so a shrewd I was.
We were talking about the movie

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10 Things I Hate About.
You, which is based on the

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Taming of the Shrew.
Which is based on The Taming of

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the Shrew.
And I'm like, I don't really

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remember this movie.
Was Julia Child?

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Was she like?
What's her name is Style?

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Julia Stiles, Juliet.
I know the cooker's a day.

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Whatever.
Julia Stiles hasn't been in

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anything.
OK, hold on, you're like hurting

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my heart because 10 Things I
Hate About You is my favorite

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movie of all time.
So like you.

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Really.
Need but so Julia Stiles, first

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of all, what was the last thing
she was in?

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I don't know.
But secondly, I was like, I

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don't get it.
Was she a she was a shrew in

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this?
So she was like a mole person,

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was she?
You you got it confused with

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She's all that right which?
Is where?

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They take the right where they
take the not so pretty girl

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because she's wearing glasses
and a hat and takeover hat and

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glasses, her falafel hat and
glasses and all of a sudden

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she's Cinderella, right.
Yes.

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So Tammy of the Shrew is about a
person who is, I would call it

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too shrewd, really like.
So if we think about, I know

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this is a strange word,
shrewdness, but I really think

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it's an important concept and
that's why I want to when I want

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to talk about it today.
So if, if shrewdness is the

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goal, then on, you know, if
you're too shrewd, you're

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cynical, right?
And if you're not shrewd enough,

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you're super naive or innocent,
right?

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And so the goal is balance,
right?

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So.
We're talking about like someone

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that's really discerning.
Correct, yes, but discerning I

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would say like in a self
protective way and in a in a

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self protective self enhancing
way.

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And so Julia, Julia Stiles in
that movie, really, I think she

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started as they often typecast
strong feminine characters,

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right?
It's like she started too

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cynical like she was.
But it did have a purpose,

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right?
And so I don't think she's ever

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going to be her sister Bianca,
who is like the ingenue.

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But it over the course of the
movie she went from being super

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cynical to more balanced.
Got.

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It all right, moving on.
OK, so let's just we we got a

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little sidetracked with the word
shrew, which is a weird word, I

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agree.
But I want to talk about why it

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is important to explore this
stuff.

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And it's because if some of
these emotions like envy don't

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get looked at, it becomes
something that lives in the

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shadows and stays in the shadows
that our children will be afraid

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to look at as well.
But if we can illuminate it and

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normalize feelings of envy, for
example, then suddenly they lose

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their power, right?
And they become something that I

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have inside me, you have inside
you.

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And it's normal and a natural
part of everyday life, both

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inside our home and outside of
our home, right?

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And so Carl Jung has this great
quote where he says that

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understanding the darkness in
ourselves helps us to understand

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the darkness in others.
And you had said to me this

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morning, and I think it's so
true that like if we only focus

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on the Polish side of family
culture, we run the risk of

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becoming a goody 2 shoes family,
which is so the family that like

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me, if I had like adopted kids
as a single mom would have

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totally created, right?
So thank God for you.

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Yeah, I think our our kids need
to be a lot more cunning.

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They also need to spot that in
the world.

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And I love this age, these ages
of these kids, but like they're

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as they get older, they can't
stay this cute.

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Like right now, I throw up a
little bit in my mouth when I

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look at how adorable this family
is because I'm like, man, this

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is like innocence protected.
Right now, yes.

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So I think you're, I think
you're on to something here.

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When we first got started with
this episode and you were

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telling me about it, I was like,
what is going on here?

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Like what?
Why do we need to talk about

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shrewdness?
Like, what does that have to do

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with family culture?
But I, I, I'm starting to get

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it.
And maybe it's because I have a

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lot of this kind of built in or
I developed this really young.

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Happy to get into why.
Yeah, but.

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But yeah, I'm picking up what?
You're putting down.

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OK, cool.
Yeah, I think a great term for

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it is St.
Smarts.

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And I also think that part of
why this doesn't seem like

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something we need to talk about
to you is because this idea of

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shrewdness or discernment and
wisdom and really how it relates

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to envy is mostly something that
lives in feminine shadows, if

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you will.
It's something that I think that

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men traditionally experience
more, whether it's through male

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hazing, if you will, or male
camaraderie, that it's something

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that I think is more prevalent
in females.

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That is an unwillingness to look
at that.

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But I do hope that we can
explore some things that are

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harder for men to look at as
well, like vulnerability or

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empathy or emotions in general,
for example, as we continue.

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OK, So what I what I want to
talk about specifically today is

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how cultivating a bit of
shrewdness in our family can

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help build resilience, and how
normalizing envy can help us

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understand each other better.
Yep.

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So cultivating shrewdness and
normalizing what?

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And normalizing envy.
Normalizing envy.

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Because really the relationship
between the two, sorry if I

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haven't made it clear yet, but
the relationship between the two

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is that a lot of times if you
lack in a willingness to look at

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envy as I have throughout my
life, you can't cultivate

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shrewdness.
Because often times.

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So if shrewdness is really, you
know, the ability to see the

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world as it is, not as how you
think it should be or wish it

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were.
And that's the definition that

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from Lisa Marciano, who's my
favorite Jungian analyst.

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Mine too.
I know this is a little bit my

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world.
So I do think so when we can

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talk about envy or it's cousin
jealousy, you know, I think that

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this is something that comes up
a lot with our kids.

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Like Abigail didn't want to play
with me.

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She only wanted to play with
Beatrice, right?

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Or somebody is bullying me on
the playground.

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I think every one of us, or at
least I'll speak for myself and

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say that, oh, she's just
jealous, right?

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Like that's a very common
refrain, I think.

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So the idea of envy can kind of
percolate when it comes to

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people being mean to our
children, but I think that it

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comes up most often in like a
one-on-one kind of reactive way

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as opposed to something that we
can normalize proactively as a

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family.
Sure.

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So a couple things.
One No one's jealous of a kid

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named Beatrice or envious 2
What's the difference between

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envy and jealousy again?
Sure, So glad you asked.

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No, 'cause it's something that
we talked about with the kids

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this weekend, right?
And so envy is when you want

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something that someone else has,
and it's usually A1 to 1.

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So it's usually two people,
right?

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And jealousy is when you are
afraid of losing something that

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you already have to someone
else.

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So Beatrice is my best friend
and Abigail comes to school and

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all of a sudden Beatrice and
Abigail are playing a lot.

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I am jealous of Beatrice and
Abigail's relationship because

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it is threatening mine with
Beatrice.

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Right.
And so when somebody says, oh,

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they're just jealous.
That's usually a terrible use.

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Is it usually them meaning oh
they're?

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Envious.
Typically, yes, in the true

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definition, but you know,
they're sure there's so many

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things that we say colloquially,
right?

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No, it's, it's super helpful.
And so and so this all ties back

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to the idea of shrewdness,
because if you can't spot it,

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then you're really going to be
susceptible to it to like

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falling, falling into it, if you
will.

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And I like this idea of bringing
it out of the shadows and

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normalizing it because it's not
that big of a deal once you

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bring it into the light, right,
everybody?

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I mean, I see it.
Just this past weekend, we

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started talking about envy
amongst our family.

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And consistently now Hunter and
Jade are both saying, I'm

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envious of this.
I'm, you know, I'm envious of

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the way that Hunter draws.
I'm envious of the way that Jade

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bike rides, right?
And so even within our own

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family, I'm seeing so quickly
how we're able to just normalize

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these ideas so that we can
notice them in ourselves 1st and

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then start to notice them in
other people.

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And again, not because we want
to say like, oh, this friend at

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school is terrible because she's
so envious of me, but because we

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recognize that this is a normal
human emotion and we should come

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to expect it.
And we have and we have this

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too.
And we have this too, and

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therefore we should expect it in
others.

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And that's the idea of
shrewdness.

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Again, the world as it is not as
we wish it were or want it to

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be, right?
Well, the the idea of shrewdness

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versus envy.
So envy shows up because we have

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this too and we should recognize
it in others.

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Shrewdness is more observing
things like envy, right?

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Because like like shrewd, like I
should be able, I should be able

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to spot when someone's trying to
take advantage of me.

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Also when somebody is envious of
what I have.

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And the only way to do this is
to spot when I have that inside

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of me about others.
Exactly.

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Yeah.
So it's really about teaching

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our kids to read the room, not
let anyone take advantage of

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them and be able to read in
between the lines.

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Right.
So, and I think that this is a

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really important skill to
develop because I can tell you

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that in my own life, I'm 39
years old now and I'm still

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working on this and finding
myself feeling unprotected in

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situations that are really an
immaturity in me and a lack of

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cultivating this discernment
where I leave myself unprotected

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because I feel safer in a space
than I should.

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Right now, that makes sense.
I would say that growing up, I

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had a negative experience with
envy.

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I saw envy modeled in a really
harmful way around, you know,

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trying to keep up with the
Joneses and a lot of comparison

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culture, I would say.
And so in my adult life, I've

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just been really hesitant to
even think about the concept of

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being envious of someone else.
And I hate to think about the

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concept of someone being envious
of me.

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Like, you'll always hear me say
I'm just another bozo on the

226
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,840
bus, right?
And I think this is consistent.

227
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,160
I know so many women that cannot
take a compliment.

228
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,360
Yeah, right.
Good point.

229
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,960
And it is an unwillingness in my
words, from what I understand it

230
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:43,640
to be.
Is it really?

231
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,240
It's an unwillingness to look at
this aspect in and of ourselves.

232
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,440
And it's like the we could have
it and therefore we could be on

233
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,600
the receiving end of it, right?
When really if we bring it into

234
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,880
the light.
I hope that with my friends over

235
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,760
time, I can say I'm envious of
your beautiful hair and that can

236
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,240
be OK and someone else can say
thank you.

237
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,880
I just got a deep condition.
There's something like that, you

238
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,360
know what I mean?
So this is something that

239
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,280
directly relates to.
We could go down this rabbit

240
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,120
hole, like so much of the
messaging of Disney Princess

241
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,320
culture when I was young, like
in the 80s and 90s.

242
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,160
I think that the princesses have
gotten better as we've gotten

243
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,160
older.
But if you think about like Snow

244
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,040
White and Sleeping Beauty and
Cinderella, they were sweet.

245
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,880
They talked to animals, they
sang beautifully.

246
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,480
They did nothing of substance,
right?

247
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,400
They were complete ingenues,
totally ignorant and innocent of

248
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,480
what went on around them, right?
Like the biting of the poison

249
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,960
apple could not be more
explicitly living in a fantasy

250
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,120
world, right?
And I have really kind of pushed

251
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,680
hard against having that stuff
in our home, like our kids have

252
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,080
not have not seen those movies
because I hate those princesses,

253
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,360
right?
But I think I hate them because

254
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,520
I in my adult life, which is so
embarrassing to say, I have a

255
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:10,600
tendency to just assume that if
I am being my best self, if I am

256
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,360
working hard, if I am coming
with the best of intentions, I

257
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,560
will be received and loved and
praised and welcomed with open

258
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,320
arms, joyfully.
And I think that you have been

259
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:29,320
so wonderful in teaching me to
not let people in that easily

260
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:35,200
and to not be rude or
dismissive, but to really

261
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,920
cultivate this idea of
shrewdness in greeting people at

262
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,760
the door, if you will, instead
of letting them all the way in.

263
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,760
For sure.
And using that door as a place

264
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,240
to interview, yes.
Not just a place to greet them

265
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,800
and say come again sometime, but
really to understand why they're

266
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,640
here, what their motivations
are, or they're pure.

267
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,120
And it's OK if they're not.
But knowing is the best

268
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,600
superpower of all.
Yes, absolutely.

269
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,760
And I think this loss of
innocence, if you will, is a

270
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,840
really important thing.
And it doesn't mean that our

271
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,320
children are going to go from 8
to 18 overnight, but it does

272
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,920
mean that there's this
developmentally appropriate,

273
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:27,080
gradual, layered understanding
of envy and others and how

274
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,400
perhaps when you have
accomplishments in public,

275
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,160
you're not going to be received
with the warmth and praise that

276
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,080
you will inside of your family,
at your school or on your soccer

277
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,840
team.
Yeah, For a few minutes here, I

278
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,560
forgot that we were even talking
about family as the

279
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,840
beneficiaries of these lessons.
And I'm just like working

280
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,560
through my head.
OK, You know, this is this is a

281
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,000
place where I show up.
Well, this is a place where, you

282
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,160
know, maybe I could use some
work.

283
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,440
This is, you know, a shadow self
that I'm that I'm good at

284
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,040
looking at.
This is one that I'm not so good

285
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,160
at looking at.
And now I realize, oh, we get to

286
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,480
like basically live this while
teaching our kids and kind of

287
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,560
get a refresher, but also show
our kids each step of the way

288
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,360
how to how to, you know, raise
this awareness, how to like tune

289
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,120
their tuning forks.
Yes, emotion.

290
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,160
Totally develop St. smarts,
right?

291
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,640
I, I kind of think about this
as, so if we did a number of

292
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,920
episodes on Brene Brown's
wholehearted parenting

293
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,040
manifesto, this is what can we
explore that lives in the

294
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,240
shadows?
What is like the witch's broom

295
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,520
manifesto?
And like, how can we take some

296
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,240
of these darker things that we
still struggle with?

297
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,320
And what I'm asking us to do is
bring them into the light, talk

298
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,880
about them in a family culture
context.

299
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,560
Meaning we spent time during our
family meeting this weekend

300
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,520
talking about the difference
between envy and jealousy.

301
00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,960
And on Friday when we have our
family meal, I want to ask and

302
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,359
the kids already know I'm going
to ask, like, when did you feel

303
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,480
envious this week and where did
you need to cultivate a bit of

304
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:14,079
shrewdness?
I'd love to share a story about

305
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,000
why I think this is so important
and what I'm still struggling

306
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,400
with today.
And then maybe we can talk about

307
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,480
your experience within me as
well.

308
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,200
OK, cool.
So it's a little bit hard for me

309
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,119
to talk about, so I will do my
best.

310
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,480
But a few years ago, I was
serving on a committee and we

311
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,440
had spent two full days working
together as a group.

312
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,160
And I was just so proud of the
work that we had done together

313
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,640
as a group.
And the way that I had showed up

314
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:46,840
with humility, like continuously
asking myself not if my opinions

315
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,160
would be justified, but if they
would be effective.

316
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,240
And I felt really good and like
I belonged in that space.

317
00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,240
And then out of nowhere, at the
end of the two days, another

318
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,360
committee member completely
blindsided me.

319
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,160
He started attacking my
character in front of everyone.

320
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,400
I had said something that he
didn't like and he totally

321
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,760
unleashed on me.
I was so shocked.

322
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,360
I had completely lacked
shrewdness and misread the room.

323
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,880
And while I think what he did
was inappropriate and wrong,

324
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,920
ultimately I blame myself.
Or I want to.

325
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,160
Yeah, I blame myself for not
reading the room, for for

326
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,440
leaving myself exposed and
unprotected, thinking that I

327
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:45,080
could speak freely as myself in
a safe space and that was not

328
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,720
where I was.
And it, it devastated me, as you

329
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,280
know, for days.
And the, the kids saw it as

330
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,000
well.
And I wanted to figure out how

331
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,520
to talk to them about it.
And I can tell you now through

332
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,040
researching this episode that I
have brought that story back up

333
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,760
to them.
Because while again, while what

334
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,600
he did was completely uncalled
for and inappropriate, I should

335
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,880
have, could have protected my
heart and my energy better

336
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,360
because ultimately I should be
the one to not let people be

337
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,200
unkind to me.
And I think that the, the crux

338
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,800
of the story here is that I just
let him keep going.

339
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:26,400
I started crying and I just let
him continuously attack me

340
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,760
instead of pushing back and
saying enough is enough and

341
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,640
stop.
And I think I've really learned

342
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,520
from that, that while I can come
with the best of intentions, it

343
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,960
is still so important for me to
be wise about where I can place

344
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:50,200
my trust.
And if I want to be really,

345
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,200
really honest, I can say that
like, because I spend so much of

346
00:19:54,200 --> 00:20:00,920
my time with you, I often times
give over my power of protection

347
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,280
to you.
Like, I know that if you had

348
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,720
been with me at that committee
meeting, you would have stopped

349
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,080
it immediately, and so I would
have been protected.

350
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,400
But this is something that I
really need to work on, you

351
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,160
know, if life is about climbing
my own mountains, I need to

352
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,920
learn how to read the room,
become more shrewd and protect

353
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,920
myself too.
Yeah, great awareness and the

354
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,240
parallels to why it's important
to teach our kids are

355
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,040
tremendous.
Incredibly, right?

356
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,480
Because I mean, just a couple of
weeks ago, Hunter came home and

357
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:44,680
she had a big milestone in math
and no one congratulated her.

358
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,560
There was no fanfare.
There were there was even some

359
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,760
like, hey, don't you think
you're bragging?

360
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,320
When she truly just felt proud
of herself for all that she had

361
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,800
accomplished and when other
children in her class had had

362
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,920
had similar accomplishments,
There was cheering, there was

363
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,320
fanfare.
There was like so much

364
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,600
excitement and cheering of that
child on any child in the group.

365
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,880
That's not her really, right?
And so she came home sad, but

366
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,920
she also just really came home
confused as to like, why was

367
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,480
that the case?
And this is like the most

368
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,960
salient example I have of how
sometimes it's that our

369
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,280
successes, Hunter's success can
trigger envy in others.

370
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,600
And that is, and that is what
she experienced and that is OK,

371
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,280
right?
And so, I mean, she feels

372
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,560
envious all the time.
She is the youngest kid in her

373
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,440
cluster, right?
She's constantly envious of this

374
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,600
person's drawing talent, that
person's ability to do the

375
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,160
science experiment better than
her, right?

376
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,240
But when it was cast on her, she
she didn't know how to look at

377
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,960
it and left confused.
So this was a great opportunity

378
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,480
for us to support her in reading
the room and understanding that,

379
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,720
no, not everybody's going to be
happy for you.

380
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,840
Actually, you probably shouldn't
expect most people to be that

381
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,920
happy for you.
That's what you get at home and

382
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,880
that's the thing that I
consistently am trying to share

383
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,520
with the kids is that like at
home, we do celebrate each

384
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,040
other's accomplishments.
And we can say I'm envious of

385
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,160
your accomplishment, but as a
fellow Neufeld, I'm going to

386
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,120
celebrate you 2.
Yeah, yeah.

387
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:35,520
It's it's sad but true what our
parents told us growing up when

388
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,680
they would say, oh, they're just
jealous or oh, they're just

389
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,000
envious.
That could be the case.

390
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,800
But we were never, at least I
was never forced to look at why,

391
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,920
right?
And understand, oh, this might

392
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,720
be what I'm broadcasting to the
world.

393
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:56,320
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that
you should dim your life.

394
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,320
No, not to dim, not to dim my
life, but to expect it.

395
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,920
Exactly.
Yeah, Yeah, I remember.

396
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,560
Like it reminds me, you know,
growing up I was the quote UN

397
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,880
quote best swimmer of my
friends, right.

398
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000
And so when we would play
different games, races or like

399
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,640
the little sticks in the pool,
etcetera, like and I was showy

400
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,600
about it.
I'll say it's like I, I liked to

401
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:23,720
win and I always won.
And I can remember one time I

402
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,120
did not win.
And all of the other kids, not

403
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:31,160
just the one kid that won, but
all of the other kids gloated.

404
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,440
They were thrilled.
And.

405
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,800
I was so hurt.
I was so hurt, but I hadn't

406
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,680
spent any time reflecting on how
all of my previous wins might

407
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,720
have made those people feel.
Who are my friends.

408
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,560
Right, you got to expect that
everyone loves to get underdog.

409
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,840
Exactly.
And so it's just, it's something

410
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,480
that we, I think again, in like
concentric circles, it's not

411
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,920
like we have to completely pull
the rug out from under our

412
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,640
children.
But these are the great

413
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,880
opportunities to not just stop
it.

414
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,960
She's jealous, first of all.
Now we know that's the wrong

415
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,680
term, but it's also like this
person is envious.

416
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,160
And aren't you envious of
another person or that person's

417
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:17,120
drawing talent OR this, you
know, so it's just normalizing.

418
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,520
But that is the beginning of
cultivating shrewdness.

419
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,000
That's where it starts.
That's where I wish that I, that

420
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,640
I can just say so much of this
is re parenting ourselves right.

421
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,480
And so like, this is where I
wish that I had had more

422
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,600
guidance.
Not that anybody did anything

423
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,720
wrong, just that I didn't, I
didn't receive that message.

424
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760
And now I'm 39 years old,
getting caught, flat footed and

425
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,280
feeling devastated and
completely unprotected in a room

426
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,280
where I should have guarded my
energy more closely.

427
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:46,960
Yeah.
You know.

428
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:53,640
Of course, but but it but it's
not of course like when someone

429
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,480
should like never again, but
that part you hadn't had that

430
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,360
many interactions with that
person like.

431
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,680
It's right, which is exactly why
I shouldn't have assumed I was

432
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,560
in a safe space.
There you go.

433
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,560
Right, there you go.
And I, I mean, this is just one

434
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,080
example because it's an
extremely poignant and salient

435
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,560
example of me just crumbling
into a puddle.

436
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,160
I don't want to become bitter on
the other side, right?

437
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,000
I don't want to become a
complete cynic, but I do

438
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,920
recognize that a lot of my work
to do that I hope to do with the

439
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,080
children, and I would say the
girls in particular, is losing

440
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,280
some of that innocence when it
doesn't serve me.

441
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,880
Yeah, I can help.
Yeah.

442
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,800
How can you help?
Like how have you developed such

443
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,360
a strong power of discernment
and really wisdom in this way?

444
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,880
Well.
A lot of mistakes made along the

445
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:55,240
path and a lot of energy
channeled at me that I had to

446
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,240
learn to dodge and avoid.
So growing up as a boy with

447
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:07,720
other friends, there's already a
natural competitiveness about

448
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,120
who's the strongest, who's the
fastest.

449
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:15,120
But then you layer in other
nuances about the friendships.

450
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,840
So in my case, I was friends
with a lot of older kids that

451
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,640
lived on my street, not, you
know, not that much older, two

452
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,800
to three years older.
And being the youngest on my

453
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,160
street that was looking to play
in that group, I was singled

454
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,880
out.
I had a target on my back.

455
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:42,080
And so I had to learn pretty
quickly to understand, to

456
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,800
understand what was really going
on, right?

457
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,800
Like if someone was being like
overly nice to me, being like,

458
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,640
something's off, just like
what's about to happen.

459
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,760
Reading between the lines, AM.
I about to get, you know, pushed

460
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,480
over.
Am I about to get my backpack

461
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,760
inverted?
Am I about like what's about to

462
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,240
happen?
And so always being a little bit

463
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:07,080
guarded as the younger kid
taught me a lot about the world.

464
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:15,000
Specifically, it created a, what
I'll call a forced EQ where like

465
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:21,360
I had to like survive or, or
really be embarrassed.

466
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,280
Let's say embarrassment was the
was the ultimate low, right?

467
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,440
Where like being embarrassed and
going home crying and like

468
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,440
things like that.
Like just that that was not that

469
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,720
was not going to fly for me.
Right, that was a bad outcome.

470
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,360
I had to learn how to avoid
that.

471
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,360
And you know how these things
go, like Hunter describes it

472
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:44,360
really well where she said, Oh,
I don't want so and so to, you

473
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,000
know, to come back to school
because no one will be my

474
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:47,920
friend.
Yes, totally.

475
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,520
That's like it's it's it's low
man on the totem pole.

476
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,800
So like if I'm playing
one-on-one with with a boy and

477
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,640
then another boy comes in who's
who's older than me, all of a

478
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,440
sudden it's those two ganging up
on me.

479
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,760
Whereas like we had a pleasant,
you know, one-on-one time.

480
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,480
Did you hear what?
She said the other day, though,

481
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,720
that like it was her finally her
job to be like the leader in

482
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,480
their little Warriors game that
they play.

483
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,600
Oh my God, yes.
And then they changed the rules.

484
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,240
They changed the rules on her
of.

485
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,320
Course it was her day as she'd
waited like a whole month.

486
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,720
So she's got to learn, you know,
to she's like, why?

487
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,880
And I knew that was going to
happen, obviously, that like the

488
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,320
people, the older kids were
going to change the rules when

489
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,280
it was finally Hunter's turn to
be leader.

490
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Like, duh.
So of of, so all of these things

491
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,760
create like, you know, a forced
EQ, the ability to better spot

492
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,280
exploitation.
So like when I'm being taken

493
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,200
advantage?
Of totally.

494
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,920
Just a heightened threat, threat
detection.

495
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Like at any moment I could be
pantsed or something like that,

496
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,560
right?
You know, that's that's legit,

497
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,800
you know, heightened threat
detection, looking around for

498
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,000
that.
Not not that these all of these

499
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,640
things are good, but that's.
No, I'm I as you're talking, I'm

500
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,480
trying to think about what's the
optimal level for these things.

501
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,280
So can you repeat it be so you
said heightened threat

502
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,560
detection.
What was the one before that?

503
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,400
Being able to spot exploitation.
Yeah, so I am terrible at

504
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,200
spotting exploitation.
Yeah, right.

505
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,040
I'm the person that stops when
the people with the clipboard in

506
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,440
New York City ask you if you
want to save dogs.

507
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,240
You know, like so.
I treat everyone like they've

508
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,240
got a clipboard in their hand
when they when they're talking

509
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,640
to me.
What does that mean?

510
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,080
Tell us about that.
So my job is to allocate

511
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200
capital, right?
I'm a venture capitalist.

512
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,640
My job is to invest money in
businesses that are worthy,

513
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,200
where that have a good shot of
going the distance.

514
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,320
Now everyone might believe that
they have a good shot of going

515
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,760
the distance, but actually in my
experience, a lot of businesses

516
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,280
don't have that.
They are just putting themselves

517
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,920
into a scenario where they
believe they can, where they do

518
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,080
what they can to raise enough
money so that they can figure it

519
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,120
out.
Sure.

520
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,640
Right.
And a lot of people, a lot of

521
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,600
entrepreneurs.
Like a fake it till you make it

522
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,520
kind of.
Yeah, a lot of entrepreneurs

523
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,240
have this like, you know, belief
comes before ability mindset,

524
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,920
which is absolutely true.
But like you need to show the

525
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,760
slope of the idea.
You need to show the slope of

526
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,880
the team, the slope of the
product and that.

527
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,400
And a lot of times, you know, I
met with somebody that just has

528
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,320
a lot of self belief, but but
nothing to back it up.

529
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,800
Sure.
And so I've over the years had

530
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,760
to, you know, be able to spot
what a pitch is versus reality.

531
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,880
So there's a lot of that.
And then in college my sophomore

532
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,400
year, I joined the fraternity
and I walked into this knowing

533
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,000
that there was going to be some
significant, I won't call it

534
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,920
hazing, but let's find a
synonym.

535
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,760
And I had to be extremely shrewd
with every situation.

536
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,320
Like I remember there was
parents weekend and I had to

537
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,200
wear a shirt and tie after I had
dinner with my parents to, to,

538
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,120
to this fraternity thing.
And I was like, I'm wearing a

539
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,440
shirt and tie.
Like, what is this going to be

540
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,720
used against me for, right.
Versus like, Oh yeah, like I'm

541
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,840
going to something formal and
fancy and important.

542
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,920
I'm like what is this going to
be used?

543
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,760
Against me, not that.
Not that they, they had us

544
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,880
blindfold ourselves with our
ties and get in the back of a

545
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,000
van.
And they drove us from

546
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,920
Wellesley, MA up to Gloucester,
MA, probably 90 minutes away and

547
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,320
dropped us off near the docks
and took our wallet and and our

548
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,560
phone and keys and said, all
right, get out and we'll see

549
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,600
you.
You know, we'll see you.

550
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,560
And just drove off, right?
Yeah.

551
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:47,000
And because I just, like, grew
to expect this kind of behavior

552
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,360
in life.
This is the story that my

553
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,720
fraternity brothers love to
tell.

554
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,400
I saw a cab, hailed it and said,
do you take credit card?

555
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,760
And he said, yeah.
I said great, because I've got

556
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,920
mine memorized and we all piled
into the cab and we made it home

557
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,240
maybe like 10 minutes after the
bandit.

558
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,320
And they were, they were so
pissed.

559
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,080
But like, that's, that's what I
mean when when I'm like, I

560
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,080
always need to have a way to get
out of a situation.

561
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Yes, well, that's the street
smarts.

562
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,920
That's the self protection.
Like I don't have a credit card

563
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,800
memorized currently and now
maybe I should.

564
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:21,760
Yeah.
No, it's true.

565
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,560
And I think that, OK, you've
given me a lot to think about.

566
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,440
And I think that when we,
because we've been together for

567
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:35,640
a decade, like I want to stop
relying on you to be, I love the

568
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,080
how protective you are of our
whole family, not just of me,

569
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,480
but, and I am so much the
beneficiary of that.

570
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,040
But I think that really good
growth for me and to some extent

571
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:50,960
for our girls as well, would be
to start becoming less innocent,

572
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:56,560
more self protective as well and
cultivate some more of those St.

573
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,880
smarts.
I was thinking about experiments

574
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,960
that we can continue to do for
our family.

575
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,080
I'm glad that we talked about
the distinction between envy and

576
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,840
jealousy and started talking
about moments when we're envious

577
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,200
of others or jealous of others.
Like the other day yesterday,

578
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,880
Hunter was watching Jade and me
hug and, like, could not stop

579
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:17,840
touching us and, like, hitting
Jade.

580
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,560
And she was jealous in the in
that moment.

581
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,360
She was.
And we named it and we talked

582
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,960
about it.
But again, with the intention of

583
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,160
normalizing, not to shame, but
just to notice that this is

584
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,000
something that comes up a lot.
Yeah.

585
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,600
In a family where we all love
each other unconditionally.

586
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,240
So imagine what it's like when
we step outside the home and is

587
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,560
a goal of mine for all of us to
see the world as it is, not as

588
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,760
we wish it were or think that it
should be.

589
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,960
Yeah.
And I think that I will say

590
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,920
myself and Hunter too, we have a
tendency to focus on that what

591
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,760
we wish would happen or we think
should it should be this way,

592
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,400
therefore, right?
If I continue to put my best

593
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,240
intentions forward and be my
best self, then the universe

594
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,800
should reward me in some way or
everyone should love me.

595
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,840
And that is just, that's not the
case, right?

596
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,679
And so talking about normalizing
envy and then talking about

597
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:16,159
opportunities where, you know,
in situations where we have to

598
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:18,960
cultivate some shrewdness, we
have like, what did we do this

599
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,199
week to read the room, right?
Where, where did we find

600
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:27,080
ourselves a little bit over our
skis and maybe not as protective

601
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,840
of our energy as we wish we
were.

602
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,800
And so I think just the more
that we can socialize these

603
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,400
conversations, that's really the
experiment, right?

604
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,000
Is like to socialize these
conversations.

605
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,000
We will do it throughout family
meal and family meeting because

606
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,080
we now have those workflows.
But I would love to challenge

607
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,120
the families that are listening
to bring the ideas of envy and

608
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,080
shrewdness into your family
conversations and see what

609
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:55,239
happens.
Absolutely.

610
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,720
All right.
So to recap then, if we are on a

611
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:04,760
mission to cultivate resilient
family culture, right?

612
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,320
It's not just about these shiny
attributes and values like

613
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,840
compassion and courage and joy
and belonging.

614
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,600
It's also about the murkier
stuff, the stuff that we don't

615
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,280
necessarily always want to look
at, but that deserves to be

616
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,240
brought into the light, right?
I think that is truly how we

617
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:28,600
build a family culture that is
anti fragile, if you will, and

618
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,600
really provides this full
spectrum strength.

619
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,400
And when we cultivate shrewdness
and normalize envy, I think that

620
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,880
we are really protecting against
this naivete that as our

621
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:51,040
children get older and as we all
engage in the world more fully

622
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:56,800
individually, it's important to
it's important to foster.

623
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,760
Yeah.
Yeah.

624
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,360
So as you said, we don't want to
be just a goody 2 shoes family

625
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:03,280
anymore.
That's right.

626
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,120
That's right.
Some St. smarts, too.

627
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:10,400
Exactly.
All right, cool.

628
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:11,840
We'll start.
Out with like The Jets and the

629
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,720
Sharks and then.
Work from there.

630
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:15,520
Love you, goosey love.
You goosey.

631
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,520
Hey guys, if you're still here,
you're definitely our kind of

632
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,720
person.
Thanks for spending this time

633
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:24,320
with us on The Most Important
Thing.

634
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,240
If this episode resonated with
you, we'd love for you to follow

635
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,640
us wherever you get your
podcasts and share it with

636
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,360
someone else.
Building family culture on

637
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:32,920
purpose.