TMIT 18: Facing Fear & Grief

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Welcome to The Most Important
Thing.

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I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld.
And I'm Greg Neufeld, and

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together we're exploring how
ambitious busy families can

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build culture at home.
Because after all, family is the

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most important thing.
Hi, Greg.

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Hi, everybody.
Welcome to Team IT episode 18 on

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facing fear and grief.
Sounds like a heavy one.

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Yeah, you're right.
This is the 8th episode in our

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Wholehearted Parenting manifesto
and the line is together.

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We will cry and face fear and
grief.

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I will want to take away your
pain, but instead I will sit

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with you and teach you how to
feel it.

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It really resonates with me,
this idea of wanting to take

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away your pain.
Yeah, I want to take away

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everyone's pain in our family.
Yeah.

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And you know, when reflecting on
this statement, I would love to

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separate our conversation into
fear and grief, partially

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because as we've discussed, we
have had limited experiences of

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grief as a family, at least not
it hasn't touched our home like

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super closely.
But I do think that I am much

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more willing to sit with grief.
Like grief to me feels like a

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productive emotion if you will,
and something that feels

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warranted typically and like
moving through it is almost like

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a rite of passage and something
that is healthy.

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In preparing for this episode, I
realized that I do not have the

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same relationship with fear.
Anytime fear comes, whether it's

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in one of our children or in
myself, I cannot wait to get it

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to go away.
Like I am very reactionary and

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very resistant to fear in any
way.

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And I have to tell you that even
in my reading in as far as

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parenting or even re parenting,
but as far as parenting is

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concerned about how to help
children with fear and anxiety.

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The trope that I constantly hear
is this is a wiring of us humans

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that is supposed to help us from
a lion attack or a bear.

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And it has no place in today's
society.

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And I don't know, it feels
really black and white to me.

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And I guess one of the things
I'd love to rumble with in this

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conversation is really like fear
setting.

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Like, what is an appropriate way
to feel fear?

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Because I feel like I understand
the arc of grief a bit better

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than I do.
I'm like, what I'm supposed to

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do when fear shows up?
How does that resonate with you?

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First of all, it sounds like you
have a superpower.

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Oh hey, thanks.
To want to rid yourself of fear

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the moment it shows up is so
healing.

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I would say most of the
population does not have that

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same.
I don't know, it feels like a, a

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maladaptive response.
Like I would like to be able to

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sit with fear and tolerate fear
more than I currently can.

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And like, let's, let's talk a
little bit more about that.

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Like for me, at least in my
adult life, fear has really been

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wrapped up with anxiety.
But I think honestly, even

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looking back, like I've always
had big fear.

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I was, you know, I, I ran into
my parents room until I was

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probably like 11 years old every
single night, 'cause I was

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scared in the middle of the
night.

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Big, big fear.
Big, big fear.

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Cannot watch scary movies, as
you know, at all still to this

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day.
Big, big fear.

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Don't love when you travel when
we're home.

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Yeah, so.
But for me, fear and anxiety are

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like really intertwined these
days.

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And I think maybe they always
have been and I just didn't know

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it as anxiety when I was
younger.

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But I really much I, I would
like to say I can't say for

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sure, but you tell me like much
in the same way you can't handle

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not feeling your best.
I hate anxiety.

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Like I hate it so much.
And it's very, very hard for me

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to sit with.
I just want it to go away.

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Yeah, it feels like an
appropriate relationship with

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anxiety, but I think what's
getting where signals might get

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crossed is around where anxiety
leads to the fear that you're

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actually in danger.
Right?

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Like a true fear versus a silly
fear, like, you know, think

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about our our kids and how some
of their fears show up and

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what's actually real versus what
is just being stretched out in

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their mind.
Your relationship with anxiety,

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I think is a is a very strong
one and one that's very

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relatable.
But I agree that you do you do

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not like fear and you you want
to figure out a way to get

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through it rather than sit with
it and understand how founded it

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necessarily is.
Is that is that kind of making

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sense?
Yeah, I think, gosh, this, this

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really is like a therapy session
right out of the gate.

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But I, I think that if I can
relate it to grief and the times

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in my life where I have
experienced grief, I have tools

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to kind of allow myself to
grieve whether it is like for me

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more recently, the closest
experience I've had is when my

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grandmother died of COVID,
right?

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That was that was a pretty rough
time for me.

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We were very close, but I
allowed myself to experience all

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the different layers of grief,
and those would be the deep

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sorrow and the tears of joy just
for having experienced her in my

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life.
And thanks to your family, I

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have something called the
Mohammed Runjaya chant that I

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use when someone when I want to
express love and goodwill to

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someone as they are passing.
And I don't have those tools in

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the same way for fear.
Yeah, I don't think you have as

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much fear, though, as most
people.

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I don't know.
That's where I think the

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superpower is.
Like you, your fears are

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actually manifested as anxiety.
But you, it's like a true fear,

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like something that actually is
putting.

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I I think you respond very well
to situations where you might be

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in danger, so to speak, where,
you know, you have a fear maybe

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of our garage door being open or
something like that and Winston

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getting out.
But if Winston were to get out

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like you would act, as opposed
to being worried that he were

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afraid that he's going to get
hit by a car, you would go and

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save that dog.
Yeah.

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I wonder how, how related those
two things are.

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Yes, I I am very good in a
crisis, if that's what you're

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saying.
That's what I'm saying.

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If any of the fear were to
actually come true.

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That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, I think I'm very good in

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the crisis, but we're kind of
dancing around it.

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So I don't want to spend too
much time on my fear and

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anxiety.
But like I think you and I are

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probably talking about something
similar.

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So most of my fear and anxiety
today is wrapped up around

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doctors and the medical system
and in particular the way it the

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symptom, the most acute symptom
is that you cannot take my blood

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pressure.
We have no idea what my blood

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pressure actually is because
anytime someone tries to take

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it, I have a full blown panic
attack.

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And that sucks.
It's just annoying.

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Like, I don't like that aspect
of myself because I've made a

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mountain out of a molehill, but
it does have roots in something

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real, right?
And so a couple episodes ago, I

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think in our accountability and
respect episode, we talked about

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how I had and still have
significant trauma from Jade's

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birth.
And I think it's fair to say

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that Jade's birth, during Jade's
birth, we were victims of

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malpractice because they were so
afraid of preeclampsia that they

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coerced us into inducing her
three weeks early.

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Even though I didn't have
hypertension, right?

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I had anxiety induced blood
pressure and I had walking up

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three flights of subway stairs,
running across Central Park and

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multiple avenues to try to get
to the doctor's office and have

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at 37 weeks, 36 weeks pregnant
and having them take my blood

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pressure the moment I arrived
and still then only slightly

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high, right.
But, and this is a whole tangent

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that I would love to talk to
anyone about all the time

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because I've definitely done a
lot of research and kind of

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unpacking about what happened.
But because preeclampsia is so

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pervasive in the United States
in particular, suffice it to say

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that I, I had probably too much
trust in our family.

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We placed a lot of trust on
doctors.

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Like we really elevated their
status and whatever a doctor

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said, I followed always.
And so I didn't realize how I

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didn't realize how strong of a
relationship I had with a

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doctor's authority until Jade's
birth.

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And it really, it broke me when
I, and I'd always been treated

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well by doctors too, Even with
Hunter's birth when I had

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postpartum hemorrhaging, my
obstetrician at that time, like

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I felt like really felt like
really took care of me well.

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And that was just not the case
on on December 23rd, 2019.

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And I'm still working through
that and I still like, I really

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feel as though that the problem
is that that fear was warranted

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at the time.
And now there is no baby in my

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belly and I'm still petrified
and have a lot of mistrust for

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the medical system.
The problem is as I get older, I

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really want to take care of my
health and so I am the ultimate

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loser if I avoid going to the
doctor because I'm afraid that

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they're not going to take care
of me.

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And so a lot of my journey over
the past couple of years in

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particular, because for a while
I just didn't even want to look

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at it, right, has been about
trying to find that balance

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between.
I know that my initial

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relationship with doctors and
their ultimate authority is was

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not healthy for me, is not
healthy for me today.

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But I also know that fully
avoiding doctors is not healthy

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for me.
So how can I find the balance

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where I'm listening to what
experts have to say goes back to

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this in the hand, right, while
also trusting my intuition.

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And I'm still really wrestling
with that, like it's, it's

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really hard for me.
I know it is, then I see that.

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What would you say to me if it
were me struggling with doctors

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and high blood pressure?
That's The thing is that like, I

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don't really know.
And this comes up because Hunter

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has big fear.
Big, big fear.

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And we were on our way to the
orthodontist last Friday, and

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she was hysterical in the car
because she had eaten a piece of

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her friend's fruit rope, and
realized afterwards that it was

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sticky, chewy candy, which she's
not really supposed to have

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because she has an appliance in
her mouth.

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And she was out of her mind,
upset the whole ride to the

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orthodontist, like almost
vomiting in the bathroom at the

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orthodontist, doubled over in
fear that they were going to be

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mad at her and yell at her for
having a bite of someone's fruit

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rope.
And this doctor could not be

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nicer.
Like it was so misplaced,

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misguided, you know, it was so
not related to fact.

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Like she's never really had a
bad experience at a doctor.

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And that way, she's never really
had anyone yell at her in the

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way that her mind thinks that
she's going to get yelled at.

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And this has come up at her in
her volunteering opportunities.

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This has come up in her
extracurriculars.

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This has come up with the with
doctors.

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And so I just tried to be walk
alongside her and also end it as

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soon as possible as a hunter, we
just need to get in there.

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And you need to tell her so that
you can see kind of get that

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feedback loop.
And of course they were like,

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oh, hunter, no big deal.
Don't worry about it.

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Don't be silly like and I saw
her visibly relax, but there is

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this, it's so relatable for me,
but both of us, it is just not

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tied to reality at all.
And so I don't know how to

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ground that because it doesn't
feel like facts can ground that.

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That's true, Yeah.
I sit in a house full of

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unfounded fear, for sure.
The ladies in this house

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especially.
I don't know what to do with it,

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and I think it's worth exploring
what we can do with it.

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Yeah, I mean, listen, I think
that I've definitely talked to

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Chat chat DBT about this.
I've listened to podcast about

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this.
Like I, I understand that there

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are things that we can say
mostly, you know, just being

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physically present with someone
and getting curious about what

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really is bothering them and
then naming it like that's

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really scary or that must have
felt awful without, without

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minimizing it, right?
And, and staying regulated for

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ourselves.
So all these things, you know,

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great.
But when it's just completely,

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when it's just completely
unrelated to reality, I don't, I

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don't know how to bring included
myself included.

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Like I don't know how to bring
that person back down.

226
00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,080
And is it, and is that my, even
my goal?

227
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,920
Like I'm not really sure.
A recent episode of the Founders

228
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,080
podcast, Davidson brought up a
quote from Jimmy Iovine, the

229
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,640
record producer, founder of
Interscope Records, and the the

230
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,280
subject of the film with Doctor
Dre.

231
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,920
The Defiant ones, where Jimmy
says when you feel fear, you

232
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,480
have to train yourself to take a
step forward.

233
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,240
And I believe that that is the
answer.

234
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,440
But I don't know how to
troubleshoot the middle part.

235
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,760
How do you do the training?
Yeah, I don't.

236
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,560
I don't know either.
And I think I told you that in

237
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:53,040
Adam Grant's latest book, Hidden
Potential, he talks about how

238
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,840
you can't wait for confidence to
take the first leap, that you

239
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,480
have to take the leap in order
to gain confidence.

240
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,880
And so, you know, I do wonder,
like for for me and for Hunter,

241
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,280
it seems like it's wrapped up in
doctors a bit.

242
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,800
And that is not something that
we do that often, is the other

243
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:09,760
part of it.
Is that like?

244
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,160
Why?
It's wrapped up in doctors, too.

245
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,320
And for Adam Grant, he's talking
about he's a, he was a like a

246
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,080
competitive diver.
And so he's talking about

247
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,040
literally taking a leap and like
learning how to do complicated

248
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,880
dives, right?
And that is something that you

249
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,240
can practice over and over and
over again.

250
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:27,880
How many times a year do I see a
doctor?

251
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,440
Like 5 maximum, right?
Hunter sees them the same,

252
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,520
right?
So it's like we're not able to

253
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,440
put in enough reps for our
brains to really create that

254
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,040
feedback loop.
Like there's too much time in

255
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,120
between.
Yeah.

256
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:45,120
I would argue also that there's
some form of like a relationship

257
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,720
buyer payer mismatch in the
relationships that we're talking

258
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,960
about with doctors when it is a
cash pay doctor.

259
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,480
I don't think you've ever had an
issue.

260
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,120
Yeah, I look forward to like,
transferring everything to

261
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,000
private because I think that
that will really change the way

262
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,320
I feel about it.
You're so right.

263
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,480
And one of the things that
you've taught me that

264
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,720
unfortunately, you tried to tell
me when I was pregnant with

265
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,960
Jade, but it just wasn't landing
because I was so spun up.

266
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,080
Anxiety had the wheel like
inside out too and is and

267
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,400
something that I've actually
shared with friends more

268
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,320
recently that I think has been
helpful as well is just this

269
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,320
idea of like you are the
customer, like you actually do

270
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,880
get to say what matters.
But when it comes to the

271
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,600
healthcare system, like I just
didn't know.

272
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,200
I didn't know that you could
walk away against medical

273
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,240
advice.
I had no idea that was a thing

274
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,080
until a similar trajectory
happened with Maverick's

275
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,320
pregnancy.
And I found myself in the

276
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,080
hospital again at 37 weeks with
a different doctor telling me

277
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,880
that she wanted to induce me
because my blood pressure was

278
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,600
slightly elevated and she wasn't
busy that afternoon, right?

279
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,840
And it wasn't because, I mean,
insanity, insanity.

280
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,240
But like, and so this is like
real stuff.

281
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,160
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I think that people should

282
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,320
have a healthy fear of the
medical system.

283
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:57,800
I mean, you should have a
healthy fear of anyone that it,

284
00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,240
that you're putting your life in
their hands, right?

285
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,600
Health healthy skepticism is
important no matter where you

286
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,200
are because you need to be your
own advocate.

287
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,760
You can't put your, your life,
your, you know, the next steps

288
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,960
in someone else's hands without
understanding why those next

289
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,520
steps are what they say they
are.

290
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,360
But it's really hard when it's
an insurance pay versus a cash

291
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,920
pay.
And it's really, really hard if

292
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,280
you have an employer where you
get insurance through and you

293
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,880
can only go to certain doctors.
And I think that's where a lot

294
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,680
of the fear in this country
comes from, is people showing up

295
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,200
to doctors that they have to see
where they can't.

296
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,040
They don't really have a choice.
This is the one that's in

297
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,680
network that's closest to them.
They can't go get a second

298
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,440
opinion.
They're not the customer

299
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,800
anymore.
They are really in a socialist

300
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,640
system.
Yeah, Anyway, I don't want to

301
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,240
talk too much about healthcare.
Sure, even.

302
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:46,840
I mean, I do want to talk too
much about healthcare.

303
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,440
I can talk about it all day, but
I don't think.

304
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,280
It's really in this context,
though it's interesting that

305
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,000
that is where the fear shows up
in this family.

306
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,400
It is.
It really is.

307
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,560
And it's not even like I, I, I
know I have some friends, you

308
00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,960
know, that really are worried
about their health all the time.

309
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,200
I am not worried about my
health.

310
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,359
I feel like genuinely generally
pretty healthy.

311
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,520
It's just when I feel like I
need support that I am really

312
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,800
scared to, to put my, myself.
I feel like I'm at the mercy of

313
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,440
someone who doesn't have my best
interest at heart, whose

314
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:19,839
incentives are not aligned with
mine.

315
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,880
And where you have to show up,
take a test, and the results of

316
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,599
that test dictate what comes
next.

317
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,760
Yeah, I'm a terrible test taker
in that respect.

318
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,520
And and test taking is really a
non entity in this house as

319
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,440
well.
So that's another thing about.

320
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:35,640
It.
Yeah, it's not surprising at all

321
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,360
that we send our kids to school
where there are no tests because

322
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,480
I don't like them.
Yeah.

323
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,200
I would love to talk about what
fear means to you, because I

324
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,520
think that you have a very
different type of fear and yeah,

325
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,560
So what comes up for you?
What comes up is resistance.

326
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,760
Where do I feel resistance?
Where it's things that I know

327
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,120
are good for me that I don't
want to do versus things that I

328
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,200
know are not bad for me that I'm
afraid of.

329
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,000
So I think that fear shows up in
that second category where I

330
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,240
feel resistance against doing
something because I'm like, oh,

331
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,440
this is something that I
genuinely have fear about.

332
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,120
I know it's not going to be
detrimental to my mind, body, or

333
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,800
soul, but I just kind of don't
want to do it because it rose me

334
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,080
the wrong way.
It's pretty simple.

335
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,880
So the Velocicoaster at
Universal, I mean, I didn't grow

336
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,120
up doing roller coasters and so
something like that.

337
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:33,880
I'm just like, I can't imagine
now what I found and what I've

338
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,880
experienced since trying to
attempt that roller coaster with

339
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,560
you a couple years ago is every
roller coaster since.

340
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,200
I have watched a YouTube of the
first person experience of it,

341
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,320
so I'd understand what to
expect.

342
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:46,920
And from there I'm able to do
it.

343
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,960
And now I kind of like watching
roller coaster videos.

344
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,520
I can't say that I love roller
coasters, but I do like watching

345
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,400
them because it gets me into a
place of normalization, if you

346
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,240
will, Like I know what's coming
next.

347
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,960
I know that these are turns.
I know that I'm safe and I can

348
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,760
get through fear that way and
fight the resistance.

349
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,800
So that's that's a an example
that comes to mind where I know

350
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,800
that it's not going to harm me,
but it's like it makes my skin

351
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,720
crawl a little bit.
I love that.

352
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,280
Two things.
One, when you edit the video

353
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,600
episode of this, you absolutely
have to put the picture.

354
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,960
Of you OK.
That needs to go in there.

355
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:31,000
Two, I OK, Oh my gosh, I love
that memory because it's so true

356
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,040
for you and fear and I think
you've really found a great tool

357
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,720
in watching first person YouTube
videos of roller coasters.

358
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,280
And two, I am totally kicking
myself because how did I not

359
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,360
talk about roller coasters in
our joy episode?

360
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,520
Like whoa.
Peak joy for me.

361
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,480
Like absolute.
Well, that's, that's kind of why

362
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,160
I think you have a superpower is
because you're, you're able to

363
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,080
equate fear of a very scary
roller coaster with joy of that

364
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,720
experience that that you're
going to feel at the end of it

365
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,440
and move through it and get on
the on the ride.

366
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,320
Even if you're the only rider
out of this family.

367
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,080
I saw you do it at Busch Gardens
where you're like, Oh my God,

368
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,280
that thing looks so scary.
I have to do it.

369
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:13,760
You're like, I have to do it,
I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do

370
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,000
it, I'm gonna do it.
And then you like, run up to the

371
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,960
thing and you get on by
yourself.

372
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:19,520
I love it.
I love it so much.

373
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,280
Like, I love that fear.
I love that.

374
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,640
Like, it's exhilaration, right?
It's total exhilaration.

375
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,760
You know, it's so interesting
because I think that, gosh,

376
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,960
there's a lot going through my
head right now when we equate

377
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,040
fear of roller coasters to fear
of doctors.

378
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,600
And the thing I think about when
it comes to roller coasters is

379
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,600
that I'm very trusting.
Like I actually believe that I

380
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,640
am safe that I don't know if you
don't believe that you are safe,

381
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,680
but I really do believe that
especially even just like law of

382
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,160
averages, like I'm not going to
die on this roller coaster.

383
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,560
And I love the feeling of
totally letting go.

384
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,880
It's almost like a spiritual
experience for me where I'm

385
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,280
just, I've totally surrendered
to this roller coaster.

386
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,240
And quite frankly, if I die on
this roller coaster, I'm going

387
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,400
to die having so much fun like I
am I'm there.

388
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:08,600
That is what broke inside of me
when Jade was born.

389
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:14,800
Is that like I like to hand over
my power and part of being a

390
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:20,440
dole, an adult, like is that I
have to, I can't hand over my

391
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,080
power.
I wanted to hand over my power

392
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,600
to that doctor because I
definitely did.

393
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,520
When Hunter was born and I had
postpartum hemorrhage, I was in

394
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,840
such a state that I had no idea
what was happening.

395
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,600
I was 10 days postpartum with my
first baby and like had to leave

396
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:35,960
her to go to the emergency room,
right?

397
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,760
I was completely surrendered and
giving up power to this person

398
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,680
and it worked out.
She treated me so well.

399
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,160
And I was, let's just say,
'cause it's, you know, all of

400
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,120
this is tied up with my
expectations around the outcomes

401
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,120
too, right?
And so like, I handed over my

402
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:54,080
power with my OB with Hunter and
my ego liked the outcome.

403
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,440
Therefore there was no, there
was no bump on the road.

404
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,760
I handed, I did the same thing
with my different OB with Jade,

405
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,120
but I did not like the outcome.
I felt really harmed.

406
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,680
And since then, there's been a
lot of bumps in the road.

407
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,600
It's been very, very hard for
me.

408
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,360
But I did the same thing both
times and I'm still doing it on

409
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:16,040
roller coasters.
It's.

410
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,520
A great, great notice, yeah.
So I think that part of what I

411
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,920
need to learn, and I hope that
maybe this is something that I

412
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,840
can learn alongside our
children, is when it is OK to

413
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,120
surrender, when it is safe to
surrender, and when we actually

414
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:38,920
have to really own our power.
Yeah, reflecting on this, my

415
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,440
fear shows up in places where
surrender is necessary.

416
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,040
And I don't ever think it's safe
to surrender.

417
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,880
So I do not like giving that up.
I mean, you even see it at the

418
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,720
doctor where I'm like, no, this
test is the one that I'm going

419
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,000
to that you're going to give to
me.

420
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,280
Like this is a, you know, my
labs that I've gotten from a

421
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,840
different doctor.
I'm just bringing this to you to

422
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,160
inform you that I am healthy.
Prove me.

423
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,720
Prove me wrong.
It was so funny, you guys.

424
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,000
We went to the cardiologist
together, of course, this past

425
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,120
week, and Greg was showing him
his lab results.

426
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,080
And of course, Greg had an Excel
spreadsheet with like the past

427
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,920
five lab results that he'd had
over the.

428
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,320
Five years.
Five years of lab results and

429
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,080
he's like, I know that this is
really high, but let me tell you

430
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,720
that I have made peace with this
because this is really low and

431
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,960
I'm on a carnivore diet.
So I know that This is why it's

432
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,600
OK.
And he was just like right out

433
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,880
of the gate just pitching his
reasoning why this outline this

434
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,440
this measure was that was
completely way higher than range

435
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,840
was OK.
And I'm like, prove me wrong.

436
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,080
I know.
And he's like, you're, you're

437
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,240
right.
I well, no, he said you're not

438
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,640
wrong, right?
I don't know if he said he's

439
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:42,920
like, you know, we don't have
enough data.

440
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,480
I don't have any data to refute
you, right, is what he said.

441
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,000
And so if you're comfortable,
then I'm comfortable, but I

442
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,160
don't think he felt like he had
a choice.

443
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,080
Whereas me I'm like, he's just
telling me I'm OK and he's like,

444
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,640
OK, let's run these tests
because it'll give you Peace of

445
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,680
Mind.
It's going to be OK.

446
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,560
It's.
Going to be OK.

447
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,480
Yeah.
So surrender.

448
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,560
That's a really great notice
that you do well with that in

449
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,080
places where you feel like
you're going to be safe.

450
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,000
Fear now shows up in places
where you felt like it used to

451
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,960
be safe to surrender, and now
you cannot.

452
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,080
Can I just tell you that it
feels a little bit like an

453
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,800
immaturity?
It does feel a lot like an

454
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,920
immaturity in me where I don't
know, because I want to strike

455
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:21,000
this balance between like
childlike Glee and joy, which I

456
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,480
do think really does somewhere
come from this.

457
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,400
Like I am safe even when I
surrender and then, like, having

458
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,080
to be and then when that doesn't
work out, like having to know

459
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,400
that I need to be an adult in
the situation.

460
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,200
Yeah.
And I don't like it.

461
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,760
I know you don't.
It is a little.

462
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,920
It's immature.
It's you.

463
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,520
It's not immature as much as it
is you feeling like you have a

464
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,320
lot of places where you have to
be overly responsible and

465
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,160
wanting for some places in your
life for you to just be able to

466
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,000
walk in and somebody else is
responsible.

467
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,680
Yeah, but to treat me with.
Care, of course, to treat you

468
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,480
the way that a parent, a loving,
doting parent, would treat you.

469
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,320
Yeah.
Yeah, it's true.

470
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,560
OK.
Life lesson though.

471
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:14,000
There's no places in this world
where anyone outside of your

472
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,040
immediate family is going to
have the incentive to treat you

473
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,720
the way that you want to be
treated.

474
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,480
Can you show me the incentive?
I'll show you the outcome.

475
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,440
Well, so it's true though, that
the incentive at Busch Gardens

476
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,440
and Universal and Disney World
is for me to not die.

477
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,400
Yep.
So I feel like we're our

478
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,160
interests are aligned there.
Totally, but but how many rides

479
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,400
get shut down?
Well, that's a whole other.

480
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,280
Thing that as a result of.
Well, I'd actually prefer that,

481
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,080
though I would prefer that
because I do put my life in

482
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:42,880
their hands.
But that's.

483
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,600
The thing if you show up and and
you're outsourcing the whole joy

484
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,280
component then and the fear
component then they have the

485
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,960
right to shut down half the
rides and it it can suck.

486
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,560
Yeah, we love amusement parks
here in Florida, some of us more

487
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,040
than others, but it's.
It's I'm warming up to all of

488
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,080
this.
It's, it's new for me.

489
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,400
It's not something that I did
much as a kid when I was 12.

490
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,080
I'd like to go to liquor stores
and drive into Manhattan.

491
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,960
You know, I wasn't, I wasn't
driving at 12.

492
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,920
But this is what I mean about
you were so mature so early.

493
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,040
Like I was not doing that at 12.
I was riding the rides.

494
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,120
Those were my roller coasters,
getting in cars with strangers

495
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,000
and going to parties.
It's amazing.

496
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,680
I know I'm still alive.
Yeah, so.

497
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,160
OK, so we've said a lot about
fear.

498
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,200
Shall we move over to grief, or
is there anything else you'd

499
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,400
like to say about fear before we
move over?

500
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,440
No, let's move over to grief.
I hate to say it, but you are

501
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,160
our resident grief expert, so
I'm going to let you open.

502
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,360
Well, I don't have much
experience with grief as a young

503
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:53,000
child, and that's pretty
wonderful.

504
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,680
I think that grief for young
children, especially hearing

505
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,280
from you about all the death
that happened around your 4th or

506
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,480
5th birthday, is tremendously
sad and unsettling, but also

507
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,240
creates this this feeling like
the other shoe could drop at any

508
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,200
moment.
Yeah.

509
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:13,400
I mean, I can talk about that
for a moment.

510
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,160
So when I was 4, my mom's mother
and sister, who were very

511
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,520
involved in my life, died within
six months of each other.

512
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:28,160
And it's hard for me to say for
sure how that has affected my

513
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:33,480
life.
But I do think that 1990 was not

514
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,240
really a time where you talked
much to your kids about death.

515
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,720
And I definitely took away the
idea that people could drop dead

516
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,480
at any moment.
I just don't know that any of us

517
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,800
really allowed space for our
grief.

518
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:51,760
Yeah.
And so I don't, I don't really

519
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,040
have a playbook for grief from
those experiences.

520
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,160
Right.
But it's stayed with you.

521
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,280
And I remember it showing back
up when Hunter turned 4, you

522
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,520
know, when your grandmother
passed away.

523
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,960
It's really hard for young kids
to have this sense of

524
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,440
impermanence around the people
they love.

525
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,800
And yeah, I don't, I don't know
what to do with that.

526
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,680
But what I noticed a lot about
our kids is probably similar to

527
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,880
my brother and I growing up.
Our kids talk a lot about death

528
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240
just in kind of like playful
ways.

529
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,680
Not, not like in that sadistic
way, but more just like, oh,

530
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,040
who's going to die first?
And they're curious about it,

531
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,760
Yeah.
There's no grief that they've

532
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,920
experienced necessarily, but
they're curious about it and

533
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,000
they don't understand it.
Yeah, well, the founder of their

534
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,320
preschool died this year, right?
And that was that was their

535
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,520
first experience.
She was someone that they saw

536
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,320
quite frequently they weren't
super close to, but she was kind

537
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,720
of like an Angel on their play
scape and someone that everyone

538
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,520
looked up to.
And so we watched them move

539
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,320
through that grief and talk
about how they just want to hug

540
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,600
her again and they don't
understand why she died.

541
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,280
There was there were a lot of
questions, right?

542
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,840
And, and some sadness, but
mostly a lot of questions.

543
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,320
And I think that when I think
about grief, the thing that has

544
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,640
been most helpful to me, two
things really have been most

545
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,880
helpful to me, if I may.
The first is from Elizabeth

546
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,800
Kubler Ross, who's like a grief
expert and talks about the

547
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,120
different stages of grief.
She defines grief as anytime

548
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,400
something is taken away without
your consent.

549
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,760
So obviously we think a lot
about grief around death, but it

550
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,560
could could be a divorce or the
end of a relationship or the end

551
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,080
of a friendship, right?
Anytime that there is something

552
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,360
that you didn't necessarily want
to end or don't feel like you

553
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:59,880
had consent and ending.
And I've definitely experienced

554
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:06,040
grief in in those ways, really
with, you know, the the ends of

555
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,000
friendships in particular more
recently through I think no

556
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,560
fault of anyone, but just kind
of growing apart.

557
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,320
And you've really supported me
in my kind of wrestling with

558
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,760
really going through the
different stages of grief

559
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,000
through ultimately accepting the
end.

560
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,600
But then I think there's this
other type of grief, which I

561
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,720
gratefully have not experienced,
which is the one where you are

562
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,560
with someone all the time and
they are a permanent figure in

563
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,920
your life.
And then I think there's this

564
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,720
extra layer of grief, which
Andrew Huberman talks about,

565
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,840
where grief is essentially a
disruption of the go no go

566
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,400
signal in your brain.
And so he describes it as

567
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,760
reaching for a glass of water
that is continuously moving,

568
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,840
just out of reach.
And it's this rewiring of your

569
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,400
brain that has to happen over
time because you can't pick up

570
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,160
the phone and call that person.
They aren't downstairs at the

571
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,840
breakfast table.
And I think that that is the

572
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,520
grief that really only, you know
intimately in our home.

573
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:24,880
In a way for sure as it relates
to my parents dying in my 20s

574
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,480
definitely experienced that type
of grief.

575
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:37,480
However, it's a bit meta because
both of my parents, I witnessed

576
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,760
A dramatic change in each of
them that was foreign to me and

577
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800
resulted from a dramatic change
in each of their lives that was

578
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:55,240
foreign to them, where their new
normal look nothing like what

579
00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:04,800
they had grown accustomed to.
So to take it one at a time, I

580
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,400
lost my mom well before she
died.

581
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:15,160
She lost herself well before she
spiraled into depression.

582
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:22,280
She lost herself when we had to
sell our childhood home to pay

583
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,840
family debts.
She lost herself when she had to

584
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:31,800
move in with her mother, who was
a big antagonist protagonist in

585
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,760
our lives, somebody that loved
her dearly but didn't know how

586
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,160
to show that love in a
constructive way.

587
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,720
She lost herself when she and my
father had to move into that

588
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,800
house with her mother and was
back under the same roof of her

589
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,840
mother.
She lost herself when she

590
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,000
couldn't trust necessarily the
things that she had trusted in

591
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,280
her friends, in her
relationships, in my father.

592
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,120
And so I watched somebody that I
knew so well turn into somebody

593
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,960
that I could barely recognize.
And that was the hardest thing

594
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,920
for me.
When she died, you know, I

595
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,200
remember looking at her body and
hoping that she had found peace

596
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,200
finally, because she was
struggling.

597
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,360
She was really struggling.
Interestingly, from what we now

598
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:30,280
know is hereditary bipolar.
And then for my dad, I watched

599
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:38,040
him lose his wife because he
didn't fight the resistance and

600
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,720
he didn't necessarily hold
himself accountable to.

601
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,800
He put his needs to be a
provider in front of his needs

602
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,400
to be an honest, loving, doting
husband.

603
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,560
The man that he was.
And I don't know if it was

604
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,840
intentional or not, or if it was
just him being somebody who

605
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,760
thought that he could catch up,
catch back up.

606
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,560
But he, he created a, a big
sinkhole in his business

607
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,159
financially, which created
massive problems for our family.

608
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,639
And so I watched him move from
this place where he was

609
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:22,159
respected and cherished in the
community to basically turned

610
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:27,760
away and became a pariah.
After my mom died, he moved up

611
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,679
to Connecticut to live with his
mother.

612
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,639
And after she died, he had
another year or so where he was

613
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,000
battling terminal metastasized
prostate cancer.

614
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,480
So I watched him and the man
that he was, and I remember him

615
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:49,080
to be turned into the shell of a
man that when I when I saw his

616
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,800
body after he died, I was like,
well, I hope he's found peace.

617
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,520
So the grief in the mourning
process that I experienced was

618
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:02,400
far more in the metamorphosis.
I guess that cannot be used

619
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,080
negatively, too.
And the metamorphosis of each of

620
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,680
my parents because, as Huberman
says, I was reaching for a glass

621
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,920
of water that I was used to
drinking every day, and it

622
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:17,120
wasn't there.
Yeah.

623
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:27,880
Just a lot of really sad turns
of events that I had to sit with

624
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,760
by myself.
There was.

625
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,800
That was the hardest part was
that there was really no one to

626
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:38,320
sit there with me.
I promise to sit there with you.

627
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,480
Thank you.
Yeah.

628
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,600
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah.

629
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:50,040
Do you have moments where grief
comes to you today about them?

630
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,040
Like what happens?
I mean, I'm sure you do.

631
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,040
So what happens in those moments
like tomorrow is your dad's

632
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,200
birthday?
Yeah.

633
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:09,920
What's coming up for you?
I've had many acts in my life

634
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,000
and unfortunately, my favorite
act so far is one that hasn't

635
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,640
overlapped with either of my
parents.

636
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,280
And that's really the hardest
thing about it.

637
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:25,120
It's not missing them for what
we experienced because, you

638
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,200
know, I lived up until I was 18
under their roof.

639
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,360
We had 99% of the time that we
would ever spend together,

640
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,320
together.
And it was good times.

641
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,440
Yeah, so that was beautiful.
And then we had a really bad

642
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,240
chapter and then that was the
end.

643
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:50,360
And then today I look at what
could have been and it's not

644
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,600
grief for what I lost, but it's
just really.

645
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,480
And if there's no empty hole,
because we don't know how this

646
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,600
family would be with them in it,
but there's certainly a place at

647
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,400
the table where they would have
slot in nicely and been very

648
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,480
appreciated.
So the grief that you experience

649
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,880
is primarily one that they are
not here to enjoy these times.

650
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,560
It's like fan fiction.
It's like I can write all the

651
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,520
fan fiction in my mind and in my
dreams about what could have

652
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,400
been, but I'll never know.
And that's the grief is not

653
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,760
being able to do anything more
than author those spiritually.

654
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,760
Are there times that you think
about them more than others,

655
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,280
like dates or on the tennis
court?

656
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,000
Like when is it more?
When is it most likely to show

657
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,200
up for you?
When I see the big stupid grins

658
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:51,320
on our little kids faces just
like crazy teeth and all all up

659
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,280
in my face, I'm just like Oh my
God they would have loved this.

660
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,800
Yeah, Yeah.
Well, I don't know where to go

661
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,720
from there.
I think it comes back to sitting

662
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:13,240
with our kids in grief and just
being prepared to sit.

663
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:17,160
Yeah.
There's nothing that we can do

664
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,960
to make it better, but what we
can do is to normalize the

665
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,920
grief.
I think that sitting with it and

666
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,600
and helping them understand that
this glass of water doesn't go

667
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,200
away in your in your body and
soul just because it goes away

668
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,040
in the physical world, because
it's out of reach.

669
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,360
Yeah, it makes sense.
I think that if there's one

670
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,360
thing I know about when someone
that I'm close to is in fear or

671
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,920
grief, it's that I now know that
I have no idea what is going on

672
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,640
in their heads.
Like this is 1.

673
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,840
Maybe it's true of all emotions,
but it definitely comes up for

674
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:01,640
me a lot when someone is in fear
or grief within this family or

675
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,040
within my friendships.
And so I think this really, I,

676
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,320
this idea of sitting alongside
someone rather than trying to

677
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:15,000
take their pain away is a really
important one for me to remember

678
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,960
to mostly stay, stay silent, but
also get curious around what's

679
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,200
going on.
Because I know that if I try to

680
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:33,160
guess or project what is inside
their heads, I am truly 100% of

681
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,960
the time wrong.
And so it really it's about

682
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,840
accompanying someone on their
journey and just being a witness

683
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:51,520
to the experience, regardless of
how badly I may want to stop it,

684
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,520
to make it stop.
Yeah.

685
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:04,440
Are there any lighter or more
beautiful aspects of grief that

686
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,240
you can share?
Something about not carrying the

687
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:14,040
relationship for the baggage
that it would have brought, may

688
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,320
have brought, could have brought
something about not holding onto

689
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,840
the baggage of that relationship
and just remembering all of the

690
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,560
wonderful moments, all of the
lessons as we're doing this

691
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:33,040
podcast, just remembering the
special connection on every

692
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,720
level.
It's hard to do that when

693
00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:36,640
someone's alive.
Sure.

694
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,680
I understand.
It's hard to do that when

695
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,320
someone's alive.
I mean, there's this idea of

696
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,920
like this perfect world where,
you know, we're with our parents

697
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,480
and they die peacefully of old
age and the in the 90s and

698
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,480
hundreds and their great
grandparents and they've seen,

699
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,400
but at that point, they've been
involved in your life for a

700
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,800
really long time.
And there's a lot of baggage

701
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,520
that we hold on to as adults
that are related to our parents

702
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,040
that we can let go of when they
pass.

703
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:21,200
And it's not necessarily
rewriting history, but it is

704
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,640
being able to pen my own future
without needing to think about

705
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,960
what they would think.
Not that they would think we're

706
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,960
doing anything bad here.
They'd love this all.

707
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,040
But we don't have to be.
For example, we're in Florida.

708
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,800
Yeah, we wouldn't be here if
they were.

709
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,800
Here we might not be here.
Well, maybe they would be with

710
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,120
us.
Maybe they would, but the we got

711
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,840
to chart our own course.
It's true.

712
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,840
It's true.
I do think all of the things and

713
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:53,720
so, you know, I feel very lucky
to to have had the foundation

714
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:57,040
that I have.
I also feel very light when it

715
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,280
comes to my own future.
And the only thing that weighs

716
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,040
me down is that that feeling of
lightness is something that I've

717
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,880
wanted for my whole life.
And so getting it feels really

718
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:19,400
selfish and without the intended
collateral damage, like I would,

719
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,800
I would probably trade a lot to
have them back, if that makes

720
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,480
sense.
But having, I don't know, just

721
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,040
being able to be my own person,
guess that's the only other side

722
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,800
of grief that I can think of
that creates a little bit of

723
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:42,120
like the bird leaving the nest.
OK, so we've said a lot.

724
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,040
We definitely don't have all the
answers to this one.

725
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:46,360
I don't.
Even know what the questions are

726
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,480
that this one is just like sit
with your kids and fear and

727
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,440
grief.
That's right.

728
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,760
So I think that the most
important thing about sitting

729
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,680
and facing fear and grief is
that we do it together, right?

730
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,920
It's that we are not here to
rescue one another or our

731
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,640
children from these difficult
emotions, but it really is an

732
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,360
opportunity to be present with
one another and to be connected

733
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,040
in a new way.
It doesn't always have to be

734
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,240
connection, doesn't always have
to be about joy and fun and

735
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:18,440
silliness.
It can also be extremely

736
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,560
connecting to sit together
through sorrow and pain.

737
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,720
Yeah.
And I've connected with our

738
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,200
seven and five year old quite
beautifully around getting on

739
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,120
roller coasters together.
So, yeah, what's this?

740
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,440
All right, well, thanks
everybody for joining us.

741
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,320
And thank you, Goosey, for your
honesty.

742
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:39,080
I love you.
I.

743
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,400
Love you.
Hey guys, if you're still here,

744
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,080
you're definitely our kind of
person.

745
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,080
Thanks for spending this time
with us on The Most Important

746
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,600
Thing.
If this episode resonated with

747
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,080
you, we'd love for you to follow
us wherever you get your

748
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,280
podcasts and share it with
someone else.

749
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,000
Building family culture on
purpose.