How to Build a Dopamine Moat Around Your Family

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Welcome to The Most Important
Thing.

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I'm Danielle DeMarco Neufeld.
And I'm Greg Neufeld.

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Together, we're exploring how
ambitious busy families can

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build culture at home.
Because after all, family is the

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most important thing.
Hi, everybody.

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Hi, Greg.
Welcome back.

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Back, indeed we are back from
the left Coast.

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That's right.
It's been a little while since

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we've recorded one of these.
I'm still a little bit jet

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lagged, but it's not terrible.
Me and my whole 3 hours.

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I know you do so great with jet,
jet lag.

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You can sleep anytime, anywhere.
For me it's a little bit more

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difficult.
Yeah, this household, minus me,

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has been a little bit rocky
since we touched down, but it's

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been, it's been just rolling
right into the next thing, right

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from jet lag to first day of
school.

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Yeah, I think the kids have
adjusted pretty well.

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It's really just me.
Well, that's not true.

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I had to wake them up this
morning, which is surprising.

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I don't know, I saw there was a
whole chat from the school of

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photos of kids like tuckered out
from the first day, so I'm not

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surprised that they were among
those.

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Yeah, that's true.
Anyway, should we talk about our

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trip?
Yeah, let's do it.

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OK, it was awesome.
It was.

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We all survived and mostly
thrived I would say.

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Yeah.
So we spent 14 days together in

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Washington state, +2 travel days
and it was, it was glorious.

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We hit 4 Airbnbs, 4 different
cities in Northwest Washington,

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including Seattle to finish it
off and explored a lot of nature

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but really did a lot of
exploring on what we're what's

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capable as a family.
Yeah, I think we came home with

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a renewed idea of what's
possible, which is great.

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Do you have any peak moments
that you want to share?

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Yeah, I mean, in, I think in
each in each stop, there was

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something pretty magical.
So in Port Angeles, which was

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our first stop, I think
Hurricane Ridge was just

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awesome.
I mean, showing the kids what

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mountains are.
I don't think there's any way to

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relive that.
Like we, we only get one shot at

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showing them the mountains and
we, we did a hell of a job

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there.
That was just awesome.

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Yeah, it's I'm laughing because
I have a different peak moment

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idea of Hurricane Ridge, which
was that I was like trying to

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defend the life of myself and my
child.

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So Maverick and I, I was pushing
Maverick in the stroller and

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they said it was a family
friendly hike, which it was in

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the sense that it was paved, but
it was an actual Ridge.

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Meaning like if you have one
wrong step you are going over a

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Cliff never to return again.
Not like I'm going to roll in

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some wildflowers like when we
went to Mount Rainier, I'm going

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to fall into a rock.
No, like you are dead gone

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dropping 500 feet like there is
no option.

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So, well, I agree, it was
beautiful and I enjoyed the kind

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of strenuous elevation gains.
I don't know if I will ever

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forget the feeling of holding
onto Maverick stroller for

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dealer life, wondering if I was
going to trip and he would have

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gone off the side of the Ridge.
Yeah, but we survived.

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We did, and you look good doing
it.

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Oh, thanks.
One thing I got to say about

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that is I think every outdoorsy
experience needs some like gut

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checks on whether or not it's
whether or not you're going to

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make it out like, you know, you
are, but like there's a tiny

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little bit where you're where
you're like concerned.

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And I think that keeps you
together.

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That keeps me together for sure.
Focused on present moment, the

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right steps, the present moment.
Like 1 foot in front.

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Of the other, I kept saying to
Hunter, 'cause she was saying,

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you know, this is a little
dangerous here and there, you

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know, throughout, throughout the
couple of weeks.

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And I said, yeah, it's risky.
Play it just, it keeps us

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focused, keeps us in the present
moment.

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And that said, I would say
Hurricane Ridge was something a

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little bit different.
Like we watched a YouTube video

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of a family with a child younger
than ours and the guy was like,

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I am holding on for dear life.
I am so focused right now.

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When the woman was trying to do
the travelogue and we were

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laughing at them, we were making
fun of them saying like, OK.

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And then Hunter's like, Oh my
God, we shouldn't go.

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And I'm like, it's OK, no
problem.

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It's just it's their first kid
and, you know, they'll be fine.

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No, they were right.
They were absolutely right.

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You know, don't take my word for
it.

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Try it yourself, but maybe don't
bring a stroller.

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Yeah, yeah, true.
So Hurricane Ridge, I think was

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a, was a very present moment
peak where I, I did feel a

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little bit like we were living
on the edge and, you know,

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walking with the kids down that
down that Ridge, like really

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focused.
Like part of me is like, this is

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beautiful.
Part of me is like, I can't

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believe we're doing this.
And part of me is like, I can't

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wait till this is over.
And I, I think that's, I think

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that's part of the experience,
right?

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I think if I reflect on all the
hard things that I did as a kid

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and I'm still alive for it was
that same sensation, right?

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Of just like, am I gonna make
it?

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Yeah, I probably am, but I
better focus.

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Sure, it's exhilaration, I think
is the word that I would use for

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it.
Yeah.

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And then Lake Crescent was
unbelievable as well, out of

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Port Angeles, which was another
peak out of Forks.

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There was a hidden rainforest
that we found that was

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unbelievable, where we also had
two dogs show up and guide us

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through the trail like we were.
In it was straight out of where

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the Red Fern grows.
It was insane, but it was great.

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It was beautiful.
Obviously the kids loved seeing

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the dogs 'cause we missed
Winston desperately.

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Yeah, Mount Rainier was just
cool to see.

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I, I enjoyed that.
I.

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Think we're a little hiked out
by the time we got to Mount

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Rainier as well.
It was cool.

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It was, it was like it was so
cool to to go up and then to see

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it from different perspectives
throughout the rest of the trip.

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You know, like when we were on
the ferry from Bainbridge Island

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to Seattle, we could see
Mountain Rainier.

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It's like, wow.
We were there.

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Yeah, and in Seattle, the house
that we stayed up was very

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special.
We could talk more about that

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sometime, but also seeing
friends and family.

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Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.

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I also loved just having time to
play games.

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We did a lot of puzzles and
played quite a few games.

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We discovered Battleship as a
family, the game of Life, Clue,

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all things that we don't have at
home.

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We have all these like fancy
game, right games, you know?

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But the old school ones were
really fun to do together and to

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get the kids involved, which
they did a bit this summer.

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But more in family workout, like
just doing a little bit of like

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circuit training or running in
the mornings.

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I think was really fun to have
everybody get involved.

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Yeah, that was, it was so nice.
It was so nice to well, and the

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weather really cooperated for us
with us as well.

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So we we had I think maybe 30
minutes of rain in the Pacific

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Northwest.
It's like, how does that even

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happen?
Totally.

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And then the last thing I'll say
is that the cyber truck was

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pretty awesome.
Yes, the kids loved being three

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across.
I loved how spacious it was,

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both for our luggage but also
sitting in the car and the

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beautiful, what do you call
this, the windshield.

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I guess it was the perfect
sightseeing car, especially

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because it could get really
dirty and we felt fine with it.

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Yeah, You know, it's bizarre,
like you had the vision there.

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The cyber truck is the perfect
family vehicle.

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It's it's in our future.
Yeah, it is also the autopilot

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on the windy roads.
As long as you trust it, which

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we do, it's amazing.
It's way better for you than

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trying to navigate.
I was saying it's like the

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difference between driving all
around Washington state and just

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being a passenger on a train and
I just got to sit there while

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the car drove.
I think I disengaged autopilot

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all of two times and once was
because someone didn't like our

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cyber truck and was going to
sideswipe.

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So that was a little rough.
Yeah, we definitely.

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Got dirty.
Luck.

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It's such a polarizing vehicle.
But everyone wanted to see it,

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who is like genuinely curious
about what it was.

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And we're so surprised about,
you know, the minimal inside and

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the huge that it was a pickup
truck because most people don't

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know.
They're like, what is this

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thing?
Yeah, I think a lot of people

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put a lot of their own ideas,
like project a lot of things

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onto cars.
Like that's definitely being our

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experience for sure.
Like we have some friends that

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are no longer our friends
because of Tesla's, right?

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Yeah.
I mean, like, it's just a car

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people.
Like, that's how I feel about

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it.
It's just a car and it happens

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to be a great car, but that
doesn't mean it's for everyone.

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It just happens to be a great
car for us.

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Yeah, there's got to be a
culture study there because the

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the culture of the Elon Musk
companies versus, you know,

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let's say a culture of a place
like Apple, right?

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They both make very similar
products at Tesla versus Apple.

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I would say that the Tesla is
the iPhone.

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For a car for sure.
Like, but there's bumper

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stickers all over that are like,
I got the car before he was

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crazy.
Like, you know, having.

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I hate Elon Musk.
Elon Musk having a leader that

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is benevolent, like a Tim Cook,
who like kind of, you know, is

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Tim Apple just like, you know,
by the way, Mr. Rogers.

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CEO of Apple, in case you didn't
know, because of exactly what

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we're talking about.
But like, you know, benevolent,

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like Tim Apple versus Elon Musk
changes the culture around the

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employees and who is going to
work there, as well as the

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consumer experience and what
it's like to be a consumer.

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Like, I just want a good car for
my family that drives itself,

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and all of a sudden, you know,
I'm labeled as something.

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Yeah.
As a result, I'd be really

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curious to know if there were
other cars throughout history

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that encouraged people to play
chicken or sideswipe.

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Like the feedback that, you
know, some of the things that we

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experienced on the road with
people really being aggressive,

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giving us the middle finger,
trying to push us off the road

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like I would.
I'm curious if throughout

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history that has happened with
other cars.

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Well, it definitely happened
with the Model T and, and the

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first Fords, but that was
because people are like, you

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know, there's like, it's like a
horse and buggy driving by be

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like you, you know,
whippersnapper, right?

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And, and people didn't like the
idea of of cars 'cause it was

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changing in industry.
But for Tesla, this is a

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political component that I don't
know if we've ever seen in I

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mean, I'm sure at some point
people boycotted Fords because

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he was like anti-Semitic later
in life, But I don't think it we

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didn't have no one has ever had
a platform like Elon Musk.

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He owns the platform that
broadcasts all of the things

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that he says.
And so it's just amplified by,

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you know, N percent.
So it's interesting.

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It's just such an interesting
study of like of humanity.

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I know, yeah.
I think that a cyber truck

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probably isn't our future.
I just, well, you drive like an

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asshole all the time.
Not you're.

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You're using the wrong word
there.

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OK, you drop I.
What word would you like me to

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use?
I own my space, so if I want to

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park somewhere for a moment, I
will.

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You're a very aggressive driver,
I.

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Don't think I'm an aggressive
driver.

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You're more of like aggressive
in the space.

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It's not even like when we're
driving.

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An aggressive Parker.
I'm an aggressive like like

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idle.
Intersection.

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I will.
Here's a good example.

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00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,320
I pull up right to the bathrooms
to let you and the family out in

226
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,960
a busy parking lot at Mount
Rainier and then park there to

227
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,800
go to the bathroom because I'm
not blocking anybody.

228
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,480
I agree.
Anyway, you're aggressive, OK.

229
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,680
But I don't drive like an
asshole.

230
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,560
This is there's a lot of people
in Florida that drive like an

231
00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:33,880
asshole.
You excuse me, I, I apologize.

232
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,960
Let me let me be more specific.
You navigate intersections,

233
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:45,520
parking lots, public areas with
caught with vehicles in a very

234
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,960
confident manner.
And when you are in a Model X,

235
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,200
which is essentially the minivan
of Tesla's, it's fine.

236
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,000
We're in like it's a pretty
nondescript blue car.

237
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,800
When you are in a cyber truck,
it brings it to a whole nother

238
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,840
level.
So this kind of the fact that

239
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:06,200
people are projecting good or
bad, their feelings on that car

240
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:12,200
and then you come in with
bravado, it's a little

241
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,720
uncomfortable for me.
It just means we need like an

242
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,480
iridescent wrap with
butterflies.

243
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,120
So that it's like a girl and I
need.

244
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,760
To keep the windows down so you
can see it's like a nice family.

245
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:26,000
Yes, I know, that's the thing.
Maybe it's my Cybertruck with

246
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,040
iridescence.
There you go.

247
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,360
OK, anyway, we digress.
We have a lot of.

248
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,560
I am so excited about this topic
today.

249
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,360
Yeah, yes.
Well, so I think that a, a peak

250
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:43,520
was also for me seeing how we
got there and back without

251
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:47,640
incident, like I was the most
worried about the travel days.

252
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,520
I was like, we are going, we are
so in for it.

253
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:53,800
We are so screwed.
We're taking two flights out.

254
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,720
We're taking a six hour flight
back.

255
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,760
You know, like in the middle of
peak travel season, there's

256
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,800
bound to be delays.
There's bound to be issues like,

257
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,280
you know, who knows if we're
going to get in before midnight

258
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,480
on the first night like I was, I
was definitely preparing for the

259
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,880
worst case scenario.
Which is so funny because I was

260
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,240
like the complete opposite.
I was like, I'm going to bring

261
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,160
enough food and the children
will read and do homework and

262
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:20,400
meditate and it will be just
fine.

263
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,680
No screens.
Yeah, that was funny too you.

264
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,640
Were in the middle of the ocean
one day and I was like, yeah,

265
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,320
and you guys will get to watch
movies and.

266
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,760
And you're like, I don't know
about that.

267
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,080
And I'm like, let me let me pull
you aside and tell you what's

268
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,800
going to happen on this travel
day.

269
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,960
They're going to do whatever
they want when it comes to

270
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,000
screens because they get no
screens otherwise.

271
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,480
We, and This is why we're, we're
having this conversation today

272
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,040
about dopamine and how to build
a dopamine mode around the

273
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,160
family.
Because I am a bit militant

274
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,960
about cheap dopamine, right?
And specifically around movies

275
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,400
and around TV time, because I
find that the kids are bears

276
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,000
after they watch a movie and
after they watch TV.

277
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,320
So yeah, that's just one of the
things that I'm pretty militant

278
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,840
about.
Sugar is another one.

279
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,760
But on the trip, it was great.
I got to read two books because

280
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,480
I didn't get bothered for five
hours straight on either ride

281
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,800
because the children watched so
many movies straight, right?

282
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,760
Yep, Maverick fell in love with
Star Wars.

283
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,920
And my favorite thing about him
watching Star Wars, besides the

284
00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:32,160
fact that he understood what was
going on, was that when he, he

285
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,040
was, he had to turn off the, the
third movie in the, in the, you

286
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,280
know, the original trilogy,
episode 6.

287
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,320
He had to turn it off like 1/4
of the way in because we were

288
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,600
landing or we had landed.
He was like, OK, I'll watch it

289
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,360
on the next plane.
And I was like, yes, that's

290
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,280
exactly right.
You are you are not watching

291
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,960
this movie until we get on
another plane.

292
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,160
Yeah, I mean, that's how it
works for us, right?

293
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,520
But it's so it's so amazing like
this is the reason to withhold

294
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,360
screens seems to be because you
get to we get to bring it out in

295
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:10,640
like this rare occasion and it's
a moment of of wow for them.

296
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,600
Yeah, that's the hope, right?
But I noticed, even though,

297
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,240
like, I'm fine with the fact
that we watched that they all

298
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,280
watch screens and I loved
getting to read my book, I

299
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:21,960
should say.
Hunter chose to listen to her

300
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,320
audio book on the way home
'cause she recognized that

301
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,800
watching so many movies didn't
make her feel good, which I

302
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,480
thought was great growth.
But for Jade in particular, she

303
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,200
just, I mean, she loved.
She would just sit there, her

304
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,760
whole body engrossed in each
screen in each movie.

305
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,800
But then when it would be over,
she'd be like, mom, I'm done,

306
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,040
I'm done, the movie's over, I'm
done, I'm done.

307
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,200
And I was like, OK, let's, let's
do some deep breathing.

308
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,840
Do you have to go to the
bathroom?

309
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,040
Are you hungry?
Are you thirsty?

310
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,120
Like, let's check in with our
bodies.

311
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,840
Because you could tell she was
in a complete vortex, like

312
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,599
completely under the influence,
totally engrossed in what she

313
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,200
was watching for two hours
straight.

314
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,440
Which I guess on one hand is
like a good attention span, but.

315
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,760
An amazing attention span.
Something happened in her brain,

316
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,200
right?
And so this is something that

317
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,720
I've been thinking about for a
while is just like the way that

318
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,920
a lot of today's cheap dopamine,
whether it's sugar or Netflix

319
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:32,160
streaming or same day Amazon
deliveries, is hijacking not

320
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,600
just the kids brains, but all of
our brains and what we can do to

321
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:42,760
be more intentional about it and
not just say no, no, you're

322
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,320
never going to watch a movie
ever again.

323
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,560
But in these opportunities where
we do decide to watch a family

324
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,560
movie or we do decide to have
something sweet to celebrate

325
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,840
something right, to celebrate
some occasion, how we can, one,

326
00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,840
like all of us understand what's
happening in our brain. 2,

327
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,560
prevent about like alleviate the
worst of it if you will.

328
00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:12,800
And three, just really develop a
strong baseline in our bodies so

329
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:19,480
that when we do have these high
dopamine inducing events, we are

330
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,480
better able to get back to a
healthy baseline.

331
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,280
Does that make sense?
Yeah, totally.

332
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,120
And so you framed this as
putting a dopamine Moat around

333
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,120
our family.
Yes, absolutely.

334
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,040
So that's a phrase that I had
heard not about family, but

335
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,240
around your own life from Andrew
Huberman.

336
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,840
And I think it's a really
worthwhile conversation to have

337
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,000
for the whole family.
So I think we should start by

338
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,160
talking about what is dopamine,
OK, Because I think I had a

339
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,640
little bit of a, a skew
understanding of it because I

340
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,120
was thinking about it more as it
relates to pleasure.

341
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,720
But dopamine, it's often
referred to as the feel good

342
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,000
neurotransmitter and it helps to
have it helps.

343
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,960
Let's see, dopamine exists to
help people survive and grow.

344
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,320
So it's the thing that made
people get out of their tents

345
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,680
and go build a fire, go hunting.
It is truly a motivating.

346
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,240
You know, I asked GPT to explain
it to me like a 7 year old and

347
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,600
it said dopamine is like your
brain's energy juice.

348
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,480
So this is the thing that helps
you start and keep going.

349
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,360
It doesn't mean that you're
happy.

350
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,360
It means that your brain says,
oh, let's go get up and go and

351
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,480
do that thing.
Does that make sense?

352
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,240
So I think a great example of
it's not what you experience

353
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,360
when you're eating ice cream.
It's dopamine that says, we have

354
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,400
ice cream in the freezer.
Let's go get it right.

355
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:54,840
I was talking to Jen Zelman, one
of my closest friends, that we

356
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,120
always like to talk psychology.
And yesterday I was telling her

357
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,120
about my research for this
episode.

358
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,680
And.
She and I both had the

359
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,200
misunderstanding that it really
was about pleasure and so when I

360
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:09,000
explained it to her, she said
wow, that's why I love TJ Maxx.

361
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,960
The thrill of the hunt.
And that is exactly what

362
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,920
dopamine is.
The thrill of the hunt.

363
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,400
So we're, we're wired to be
dopamine feeding animals, right?

364
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,120
But it's usually like the I'm
I'm guessing the historical

365
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,400
leverage of dopamine is to get
up and go do the thing like

366
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,800
correct?
That's it, Yes.

367
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,760
Get, you know, to, you know,
work together as a team to get

368
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,360
that whale you know you know,
and and reel it in.

369
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:42,920
Absolutely.
So things like.

370
00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,840
That and so there are other, you
know, I don't, I'm not going to

371
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,640
profess to be a brain expert,
but there are other like feel

372
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,120
good hormones, right, Like
oxytocin.

373
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,440
This is not that right?
This is, I mean, truly, you get

374
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,280
the biggest dopamine surge
before you actually get the

375
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,400
thing, right?
That's why Christmas Eve is

376
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:04,720
always my favorite day of the
year.

377
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:11,360
And 9:52 AM on Christmas morning
is my least favorite time of the

378
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:13,800
year, right?
Because it's like so much

379
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,200
expectation, so much excitement.
And so that's actually the thing

380
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,040
that I think is important to
know about dopamine is that.

381
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,040
So in the 1970s, a researcher at
the University of Pennsylvania

382
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,680
named Richard Solomon develop
something called the opponent

383
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,720
process theory.
And so basically it says that

384
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,760
every time you get a dopamine
spike, your brain later pushes

385
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,240
back with the opposite feeling.
So you can think of it like a

386
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,960
seesaw.
If you push down on the fun

387
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,320
side, then the not so fun side
goes back.

388
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,120
And because the brain loves
balance, homeostasis, the more

389
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:57,360
you push for fun, the harder the
not fun side is going to push

390
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,880
back.
And so it's it's really not just

391
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,360
that your brain compensates.
So your brain compensates with a

392
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:09,280
dopamine spike by dialing down
dopamine.

393
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,480
But it's not just that.
It also dials up stress, stress

394
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,800
chemicals, which make the crash
really hard, not just empty.

395
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,200
Yeah.
Does that make sense?

396
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,560
And then over time with repeated
stimuli, because another aspect

397
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,400
of dopamine is that it trains
your brain.

398
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,280
So every time you have a
dopamine surge from some

399
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,800
activity, your brain remembers
like that.

400
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,320
That was fun.
Let's do it again.

401
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,440
And so that can be channelled in
a positive or adaptive way for

402
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,760
things like sports or learning
and instruments, but it can also

403
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:49,360
be, it can also be hijacked
through things like sugar or

404
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:55,120
screens or gambling.
And so over time with what they

405
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,920
call like repeated stimuli.
So if you're continuously having

406
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,920
these dopamine surges, the
initial high, like how high the

407
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,560
seesaw goes up is going to get
weaker and shorter and the

408
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,320
rebound state, the not fund
state is actually going to get

409
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,520
longer and stronger because the
brain keeps adjusting to protect

410
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,160
its balance.
Sure.

411
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,200
And so that's actually that
seesaw.

412
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,760
And the opponent process theory
is actually underpinnings of a

413
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,720
lot of what they think about
around addiction and withdrawal

414
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,760
as well, obviously in its most
extreme form.

415
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Definitely.
And so are there different types

416
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,320
of dopamine hits, like if you
are doing something that's

417
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,800
meaningful, are you going to
experience the dopamine effect

418
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,960
differently than if you're doing
something that's very fleeting?

419
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,200
Yeah, I mean, I there's
definitely this idea of cheap

420
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,600
dopamine in the zeitgeist, which
is really what I'll call

421
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,920
unnatural.
It really I as my understanding

422
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,800
of is it really comes down to
delayed gratification.

423
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,040
The typically the dopamine
rewards that come with things

424
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,000
that are that you'd find more
naturally occurring in the world

425
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,280
and that have to do with tend to
have to do with meaning and

426
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,920
purpose and have to do with hard
work before gratification.

427
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,320
It's this instant gratification
cycle.

428
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,800
I mean, even as simple as we
used to have to wait until

429
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,520
Thursday night at 8:00 every
every week to watch Friends.

430
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,440
Now, if you want to watch
Friends, you can binge watch it

431
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,840
the entire day long, right?
And so like, what's the what's

432
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,800
the biggest form of dopamine?
In my view, it's at that end of

433
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,360
that episode.
It's next episode in 765, right?

434
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,360
I mean, I get chills when I even
think about it.

435
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:47,160
Totally interesting.
What I'm trying to build a model

436
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,880
around mentally is are we
looking to limit cheap dopamine

437
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,520
because it creates A rebound
effect the more cheap dopamine

438
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,160
we have?
Or are we looking to limit it so

439
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,440
that we can experience real
dopamine and not have nearly as

440
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,080
much of A rebound?
Because we're not.

441
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,960
We're not teasing our body so
much I.

442
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,640
Think it's a great question.
I would say everyone kind of has

443
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,960
to figure it out for themselves.
But for me, as someone who is

444
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,600
super sensitive to these highs
and lows, it has to do with

445
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,200
longer, more drawn out
experiences of pain, if you

446
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,320
will, of, of hard work to
experience that reward and

447
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,960
having it.
Not like it's too tight of a

448
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,640
feedback loop, if that makes
sense.

449
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,320
Like, you know, we've talked
about this even as with regards

450
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,960
to something we've discussed
before on the podcast, blood

451
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,560
pressure, how I can't get my
blood pressure taken right

452
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,080
Because to me that's too tight
of a feedback loop.

453
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,600
Like because I know that within
10 seconds I'm going to have the

454
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,280
answer, I get anxiety in the
present moment.

455
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,800
Does that make sense?
Whereas if it were a much longer

456
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,320
feedback loop like say like a
blood test or something that I'm

457
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,200
going to get the answer to three
days later, then perhaps I would

458
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,760
have less of a response.
Yep, no, that that that

459
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,640
resonates for sure.
And so a lot of the intrinsic,

460
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,760
like a lot of the things that
you would get gratification from

461
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,600
even, you know, 30 years ago,
like, I don't know, Harry Potter

462
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,120
books coming out once every two
to three years and having to

463
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:26,440
wait.
We know we have a, a friend that

464
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,280
we're going to talk to on the
podcast soon who said that he

465
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,880
makes his kids wait every year.
He only reads one Harry Potter

466
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,720
book a, a year with them because
he wants to delay that

467
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,360
gratification and make them wait
the way that we did.

468
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:43,240
Because that also isn't it's,
it's a healthy, it's a healthy

469
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,280
motivation.
It's a healthy anticipation, a

470
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,240
healthy use of dopamine.
Yeah, I like that.

471
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,720
I wonder why, from a performance
and nootropic perspective, one

472
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:01,480
of the substances I affiliate
with dopamine is nicotine.

473
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,000
And I would think that nicotine
is one of those places where

474
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,640
it's such a cheap dopamine hit
because you have 20 cigarettes

475
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,960
in a pack and if you want to
smoke another one, there you go.

476
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,280
And the more you smoke, the more
nicotine you get in, the less of

477
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,800
a it's.
Like chain smoking cigarettes,

478
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,720
Yeah.
Well, so I'm wondering like how

479
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,840
people are using and if it's
because of dopamine or if it's

480
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,400
something else, why people are
now using nicotine as a

481
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,680
performance enhancing drug for
work, for, for studying, for

482
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,760
even athletics where, you know,
this has been available to us

483
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,280
for so long.
Why is this now coming into the

484
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,720
zeitgeist where nicotine becomes
something that people think of

485
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:52,760
not as a maybe it's more of a
stimulant and less of a dopamine

486
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:59,040
cause or dopamine friend.
But I'm I'm, I'm going to look

487
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,320
up after this why that is.
Yeah, I can tell you that.

488
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:10,480
Nicotine definitely surges with,
I'm sorry, I should say dopamine

489
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,160
surges with nicotine.
So it's part of what makes

490
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,960
nicotine so addictive.
Yeah, Well, I think about the

491
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,920
cheap dopamine hits from my 20s
and, you know, things like

492
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,320
nicotine and alcohol and uppers
and things like that.

493
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:32,600
Like I've replaced those with
working out and caffeine and

494
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,360
building my business and
building our family, right?

495
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,520
Like those are much healthier
dopamine hits.

496
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,720
But you know, I'm definitely, I
have a dysregulated dopamine

497
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,520
system and I look for those
dopamine moments all the time.

498
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,040
So I think a lot about that when
this topic comes up is like,

499
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,080
what's the equivalent of, you
know, what I found in my 20s for

500
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,200
our kids?
And it's probably candy Netflix.

501
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,040
For sure, all things that are
ubiquitous and so readily

502
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,560
available, which wasn't maybe
was so readily available to you,

503
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,480
drugs and alcohol in your 20s,
but certainly not as much in our

504
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,760
childhood, right?
It's only increased its

505
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,640
influence, right?
You mentioned a couple of

506
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,920
things.
So you said working out caffeine

507
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,800
and building our businesses.
And I would say that the

508
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,920
caffeine, no, but there's a
crash that comes with caffeine,

509
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,680
right?
But the other two working out

510
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,640
and building businesses, that is
where you really put the hard

511
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,440
work and the effort what 1 and
the seesaw opponent process

512
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,640
theory would call the not fun
side before the reward.

513
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,120
And so that's actually to me the
number one way we want to live

514
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440
in a world where dopamine
exists, right?

515
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,600
Like it's an incredibly
important aspect of our human

516
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:02,440
makeup, but there's a great way
to make this opponent process

517
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,720
theory, this seesaw theory work
for you, which is to put the

518
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,520
knot fund 1st.
And so in order to create

519
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,760
balance and homeostasis, the
brain floods your body with

520
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,240
endorphins, with positive
feeling, with with dopamine to

521
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,840
give you to give you that
balance.

522
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,400
Cool.
So let's talk about the that as

523
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,440
like a framework for, you know,
how to get positive dopamine

524
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:36,440
benefits in, in our family.
Yeah, I mean, that is why we do

525
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,960
homework every morning or you
and I work out every morning

526
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,160
because doing hard work early in
the morning really gives you

527
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,080
that boost of dopamine and other
feel good hormones for the rest

528
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,160
of the day.
I mean, I have a list that we

529
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,240
can talk about later in the in
the conversation of everyday

530
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:01,280
ways to to boost dopamine.
But certainly flipping the

531
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,040
seesaw and leveraging the not
fun part of the opponent process

532
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,200
theory is a great way to build
willpower.

533
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,160
This is a little bit sciency,
but I discovered this about six

534
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,280
months ago and I think that you
know how obsessed I am with

535
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,120
this, which is that they've
discovered that every time that

536
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,480
you push through, do hard work,
use willpower.

537
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,640
Not only do you get that strike
for balance and and positive

538
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,040
dopamine boost, but the surge
actually grows a part of your

539
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,880
brain called the anterior mid
singulate cortex.

540
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,640
And they have found that people
that live a long time have large

541
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,000
AMC CS so that.
So we tell our kids, I tell our

542
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,720
kids that not only by doing hard
things are your skills growing,

543
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,400
but your brain is growing too.
And it just might help you live

544
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,400
longer.
Yeah, that's awesome.

545
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,120
I mean you, you love that AMC.
I do, I do.

546
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,080
I love it so much.
No, because it's so validating,

547
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,680
because I feel it in my bones,
right?

548
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,800
That like now this idea, you
know that dopamine has memory

549
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,240
and that when your system
recognizes that something felt

550
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,800
good, you can channel that for
good or bad, right?

551
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,960
You can keep watching that next
show or you can push yourself to

552
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,960
do 7 minute ABS at the end of
your workout.

553
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,760
Like those are your options.
And I should say those are your

554
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,840
options because part of this is
that dopamine and just your

555
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,840
natural levels of dopamine can
vary by person based on genetics

556
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,760
and circumstance.
So that's I think an important

557
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,640
thing to know and to teach our
children that some people just

558
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,120
have more get up and go than
others naturally.

559
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,480
I have a very large get up and
go naturally which can be a

560
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,880
blessing in many ways, but if
not channeled correctly can be

561
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,960
very dangerous.
Yeah, it's that's fair.

562
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,040
I don't.
Naturally.

563
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,200
I've had to train my brain.
Sorry, it's not funny.

564
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,960
What I What I love about our
balance though, is I see our

565
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,320
kids showing up with a lot of
the I don't want us that I

566
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,040
probably had when I was their
age.

567
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,880
Let's be clear, Hunter.
Hunter, Yeah.

568
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,160
Shows up with the I don't want
us you.

569
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,680
Know it, it shows up.
It shows up across the family.

570
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,760
Hunter most probably because
she's the age where she's doing

571
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320
a lot.
You're kind.

572
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,840
But I see that reverse a lot
faster and I think that's they

573
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,480
they're getting that from you,
which is great.

574
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,840
And Jade, yeah, I think Hunter
is getting it most from Jade.

575
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,400
Who's getting it from you?
So.

576
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:45,840
I think she just naturally has
it.

577
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,000
So I don't want to, I don't want
to label our children, but like

578
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,720
one thing that I, it seems to be
like what I've noticed so far,

579
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,440
what I've observed is that
Jade's get up and go is much

580
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,960
more prevalent than Hunter's.
And she's learning.

581
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,640
She's learning so many beautiful
things from her younger sister,

582
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,880
and that is one of them.
No, for sure.

583
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,280
I just feel grateful that, you
know, there's a there's a

584
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,280
healthy balance in this family,
both genetically as well as

585
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,880
being modeled.
Yeah, and I think that you have

586
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:21,440
helped me enjoy relaxation and
pleasure in life more than I

587
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,920
have naturally because I'm so
busy getting up and going.

588
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,239
Yeah, and it takes both.
Right.

589
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:31,400
Yeah.
You know, I wonder what your

590
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:38,360
crashes were like in, you know,
in college and early, you know,

591
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,760
in your career because you are
such the get up and go person

592
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,159
that.
Yeah, I feel awful.

593
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,520
They feel absolutely awful when
I don't have motivation because

594
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,360
I have such a strong because
most days I'm super motivated.

595
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,560
But no, it's true.
Like the dopamine stuff, sugar

596
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,720
was definitely a huge dopamine.
Like I definitely got myself in

597
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:08,120
a, in a bad dopamine cycle
around sugar in my teens and 20s

598
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,200
TV as well.
And so that's probably, but I'm

599
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,120
just, I'm so acutely aware of
it.

600
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,280
I don't know if everyone feels
it as strongly as I do.

601
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,880
I don't know.
I'm not in other people's

602
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,320
bodies.
But I would just say that this

603
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,280
is something that has really
been top of mind for me with the

604
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,600
kids forever because it is
something that has the like the

605
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,680
highs are high, but the lows are
so low.

606
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,000
Yeah, Yep.
So should we talk about, Well,

607
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,520
you had wanted to talk a bit
about what cheap dopamine does

608
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,960
to family culture.
Well, yeah, I think this is kind

609
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,200
of the the why we care.
Yeah.

610
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,240
So there's a few things that
that are pretty obvious that

611
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,560
cheap dopamine does to kids and
that impacts family culture.

612
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,280
A couple of them.
One is making boredom

613
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:07,680
impossible.
So I can see that if our kids

614
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,080
are watching a movie on a plane
for once in a blue moon and

615
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,320
they're enjoying that, great.
But if they were watching

616
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,040
screens all the time, the plane
ride would have been very

617
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,760
different.
And then another related example

618
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,360
is we played there, we played
audiobooks in the car on a lot

619
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,920
of our drives between the
Airbnbs and between different

620
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,360
sightseeing.
I mean, there was a lot of car

621
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,120
time and we found that we could
listen to either one audio book

622
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,360
as a family or the kids could
listen to 1 and we could listen

623
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,040
to 1.
And by the end of that trip, you

624
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,560
know, 5 seconds, 10 seconds
would pass.

625
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,480
And the question would be, mom,
dad, can we ask you?

626
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,080
Something they're afraid to ask.
I think you're gonna say no, but

627
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,200
it's an obsession.
Even something as simple as an

628
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,080
audio book quickly became and
obsession.

629
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,680
Yeah.
And so, you know, my job, I, I

630
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,800
felt in that in those moments
that once realizing that this

631
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,760
was going to be a problem, was
to change the dynamic and switch

632
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,680
to what I grew up with, which is
riding in the car listening to

633
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,120
my parents music.
Exactly.

634
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,440
Well, it reminds me of what Jen
said, the Italian phrase Dolce

635
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,880
farniente, the pleasure of doing
nothing.

636
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,600
That is, you have to really
intentionally carve out space to

637
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,920
do that in the United States
today.

638
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,920
For sure, yeah.
To take a walk without podcast,

639
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,280
to take a a drive without, you
know, listening to something or

640
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,080
learning to something.
Without listening to exactly

641
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,840
what you want talking to
someone.

642
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:52,400
On the phone to sit on a subway
and, you know, we're a train

643
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,440
without doing work without.
Yeah, absolutely.

644
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,920
For sure, it's hard for all of
us, not just for kids.

645
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:04,280
And you know, now we're in the
age of AI where it's a as long

646
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,440
as you have an Internet
connection, you have a friend,

647
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,840
you have a chat companion that
will answer any question you

648
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,440
have and talk to you about any
topic you want until you're blue

649
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560
in the face.
Yeah, I think I was telling you

650
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,600
yesterday that I it was
listening to the All In podcast

651
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,280
and Freeburg made a great point
about how before with the early

652
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,960
adoption of the Internet, you
needed to have a person on the

653
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,440
other side like to chat with you
with AOL instant messenger, say.

654
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,840
And now with the advent of AI,
it is infinite connection,

655
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,720
infinite time with another quote
UN quote person to hear all your

656
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:45,320
problems.
And they don't.

657
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,560
And by the way, they respond
right away, they don't remember.

658
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,840
Did you ever play this game with
people on AIM where like you

659
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,280
wouldn't respond for like 5
minutes?

660
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:52,920
People do text messages too,
right?

661
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,560
And but chat TPT never does that
right?

662
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,000
So talk about a tight feedback
loop.

663
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:01,440
Yeah, so.
And dopamine hits.

664
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,840
So makes it really hard to be
bored.

665
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:06,920
What does that do to family
culture?

666
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,160
That's it's pretty obvious.
It creates this demand for

667
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,920
constant stimulation.
And when you have that inside

668
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,840
our family, your family, that's
where tension gets.

669
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,880
Sure, super irritable, right?
Makes everybody super irritable.

670
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,360
The replacing shared effort with
instant excitement.

671
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,840
So that's another one that came
up here, which is the idea that

672
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,200
dopamine is best.
One together, almost like, Oh

673
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:41,800
yeah.
Like embracing shared

674
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,920
challenges.
Challenges, you know, doing a

675
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,080
puzzle together or playing a
game together or taking a walk

676
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,040
together or seeing, you know,
exploring a National Park

677
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,200
together.
All of those, you know, all of

678
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,400
those take time and effort and,
and our shared efforts versus,

679
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:07,120
you know, if you can, I don't
know what the what the cheap

680
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,320
dopamine equivalent is, but any
cheap dopamine equivalent, let's

681
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,480
say let's go shopping for a new
pair of shoes versus the cheap

682
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,400
dopamine of let me buy these
right here and they'll be here

683
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,600
tomorrow on Amazon, you know, or
Zappos like.

684
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,080
That's replacing the shared
effort with the.

685
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,480
Yeah, I'm just, I'm thinking
about my dad and his first,

686
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,560
like, designer watch.
I think I've told you before

687
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,080
that it was five years in the
making.

688
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:38,120
Seven years in the making, I
don't know.

689
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,320
But like the complete opposite
of a quick dopamine hit.

690
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,520
We went to a Breitling store
anytime there was 1, and he

691
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
would look around sometimes, try
something on, sometimes not.

692
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,320
But it took years before he
finally hit the bid.

693
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,800
And that is a beautiful example.
I think those are really

694
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,120
expensive watches, you know?
And he earned it.

695
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,480
Like, not only did he earn it
financially, but he earned it

696
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,680
with his patience and his
attention and his delayed

697
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,640
gratification, right?
Yeah.

698
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,520
So modeling the shared effort
versus the instant, teaching

699
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,320
kids that dopamine comes from
shared effort versus instant

700
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:24,560
excitement, I think is a family
culture element to watch out

701
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,400
for.
I think that's an opportunity

702
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,160
for us.
I just want to say 'cause I

703
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,920
think that we, as we've talked
about before, we hire people to

704
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,320
do a lot of things.
We, the kids, don't necessarily

705
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,760
see us doing a lot of work other
than with our bodies, right?

706
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,320
Like working out or work like
actual career work.

707
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,280
There isn't much hard work that
goes on in this House, if that

708
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,400
makes sense.
Like physical stuff like fixing

709
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,280
things or building something.
I'm getting a side eye.

710
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,440
Yeah.
I'm just saying that this is, it

711
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,120
doesn't mean we need to do
anything about it.

712
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,800
I'm just saying that that is a
place that we have not ventured.

713
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,880
Sure.
And as we've discussed, Greg has

714
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:13,000
no interest, OK.
But as crashes increase,

715
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,320
irritability increases and that
creates a lot more surface area

716
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:19,440
for conflict.
Yes.

717
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:22,400
So I think that's probably the
main one that we noticed.

718
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,320
In fact, yesterday I proposed
after our kids listen to

719
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,520
audiobooks, even they should
just go outside for three

720
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,840
minutes because that when that
timer goes off, we, we give them

721
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,600
30 minutes a day when that timer
goes off.

722
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,520
Like, doesn't matter how many
days in a row they've listened

723
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,520
to it and how many times they
know that that timer's going

724
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,440
off, they really don't want that
moment to.

725
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,600
Stop.
Or they're just like, like

726
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,040
there's like blank stares.
Yeah, I think getting into the

727
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,640
habit of doing something else.
Well, so can we talk a little

728
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,800
bit about my ideas for defending
against the dopamine hijackers,

729
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,360
Like how to.
So obviously Netflix, sugar,

730
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,520
video games, all these things, I
don't think they're inherently,

731
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,480
I don't think we should have a 0
tolerance policy against them.

732
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,360
But I think understanding what
is happening in our brains and

733
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,240
teaching it to our kids and
really trying to lessen the

734
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,560
withdrawal effects, I think can
be really meaningful.

735
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,800
So I have some ideas before the
quote UN quote cheap dopamine.

736
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,000
So let's just say, you know, an
audio book right now, 'cause

737
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,160
that's really our version of
cheap dopamine in the house.

738
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,240
So before the cheap dopamine,
insert effort first.

739
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,240
So I don't know, do 10 push ups,
do your homework.

740
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,640
We do homework in the morning,
but like something that feels

741
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:47,360
like you can earn the audio book
can really help, can really help

742
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,680
with that opponent process
theory aspect and doing like the

743
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,880
not fun thing first.
So I think that that should be

744
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,560
always thought #1 is like what
kind of hard work insert effort

745
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,600
here before cheap dopamine.
Yeah, basically sit on the not

746
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,760
fun side of the CPAP to enjoy
the fun side a lot more.

747
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,840
And then what you're really
doing is you're priming your

748
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,960
body to support that crash after
the dope.

749
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,640
And so during the cheap
dopamine, just keep it clean,

750
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,440
don't stack.
So don't eat while you are

751
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,800
listening to your audio book is
a, is a rule that we've that

752
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,960
we've come up with, right?
Let's not eat candy while we

753
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,040
watch a movie because that just
makes the spike that much

754
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,960
higher.
And then after cheap dopamine

755
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,400
reset the system.
So they say that most people, up

756
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,280
to 80% of people unintentionally
hold their breath or breathe

757
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,160
more slowly when they are using
screens.

758
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,880
They call it screen apnea, and
so Huberman has his.

759
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,560
There's a lot of different
breaths you could do, but my

760
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,600
favorite is the physiological
sigh that he talks about, which

761
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,440
is a double inhale followed by a
slow exhale.

762
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,240
So it's really filling the lungs
as much as you possibly can.

763
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,680
So the first inhale's a big one,
and then the second one kind of

764
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,520
caps it off, followed by a slow
exhale.

765
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,800
Repeat that one to three times.
That's what I had Jade do after

766
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,520
her audio or after her movie on
the plane.

767
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,720
Let's just take some deep
breaths, because she was

768
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,960
definitely not breathing deeply
while she was engrossed in Snow

769
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,360
White.
That's a good one.

770
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,080
Yeah.
And then, you know, outside of

771
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,080
those, before, during and after,
normalize the seesaw

772
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,800
conversation.
I think that it's really easy to

773
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,440
teach kids that with every high
comes a low, and that the more

774
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,160
intense the high, the farther
we're going to fall.

775
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:48,760
So we with that we're we're
trying to scaffold the fall,

776
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,640
right by putting something
difficult on on both sides of

777
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:58,880
the high, yeah.
Does that create a higher high?

778
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,680
Do we know?
Like is there a higher?

779
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,880
Not necessarily, not
necessarily.

780
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,160
I would say it directly is
related to the knot how how low

781
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,760
you go on the knot fun side,
right?

782
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,560
Like how grueling of a workout
versus the endorphin kick

783
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,640
afterwards.
I think what it really is, is

784
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:19,000
it's this Moat idea, right?
So it's really we are wrapping

785
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,040
it in effort and recovery in
order to have like a soft

786
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,800
landing.
So moats are not, if you think

787
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,800
about it like from a castle
perspective, right, a Moat, it's

788
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,560
not completely impenetrable,
right?

789
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,440
But it is slowing down the
force, right?

790
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,920
It's slowing down the attack.
Yeah, the the thing that I'm

791
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,680
thinking about is my version of
eating an audio book, which is

792
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,240
like sometimes when I'm eating,
I'll look at my phone and like

793
00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,720
read something and I don't feel
like I'm getting a dopamine hit.

794
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:56,720
I actually feel like.
That's like an attention thing

795
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,920
more than I would say like
dopamine hit.

796
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,240
Maybe dopamine has something to
do with it, but it's a little

797
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:02,480
bit different than these spikes
I.

798
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,640
Always hate myself after eating
and looking at the phone at the

799
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,920
same time 'cause I'm like I
didn't get anything out of

800
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:10,160
either of those.
Experiences.

801
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:11,320
Yeah.
That comes with being

802
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,240
intentional and like our
attention spans.

803
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,680
Yeah.
I wonder if that has been more

804
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,920
aware that you've been more
aware of that since we've

805
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,560
started meditating together
'cause that's something that

806
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,080
happened to me when I first
started meditating consistently

807
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,800
is like listening to a podcast
while I brush my teeth.

808
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,520
I, I love to and it annoys me.
Like I know that I'm doing

809
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,480
something not so wonderful for
my body.

810
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,080
The more you know.
Yeah, it's a season for me.

811
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,320
Like for some reason during the
summer I don't, I don't want to

812
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,520
multitask like that.
I'm just like happy with

813
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,320
enjoying my thoughts while I'm
brushing my teeth or whatever.

814
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:52,600
But then come like September,
October and I'm like not doing

815
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:53,680
enough.
Yeah.

816
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:56,960
Oh boy, don't even talk to me
about what happens in Q4 to my

817
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:57,800
body, yeah.
I know.

818
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,880
Well, I think this is a good
episode for us to be putting out

819
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,000
there ahead of all of the
dopamine induced festivities,

820
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,560
holidays, school.
Back to school in general, yeah.

821
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,280
Back to school in general for
sure, but like, you know, the

822
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,240
school comes with lots of
baggage, it comes with lots of

823
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,440
birthday parties, it comes with
lots of, you know, new

824
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:27,280
experiences and, and people and
just just call it like

825
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,800
heightened emotions and
conflicts.

826
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,320
And.
And so, yeah, there's a lot of

827
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,000
dopamine that's showing up, I'm
sure in households across the

828
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,840
country right now that are then
being fed by others cheap

829
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,040
dopamine hits.
You come home, you get a, you

830
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,360
know, you get a sweet snack, you
get a like.

831
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,680
These aren't.
These are recipes for a crash

832
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,800
later on.
You see someone else's cool

833
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,120
pencil case.
Like there's a lot of peer

834
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,240
influence too.
Social comparison involved.

835
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,080
Totally.
OK, so just to recap, as far as

836
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,160
like if there is going to be a
cheap dopamine hit in your day,

837
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,560
the three things that you can do
is try to put hard work or some

838
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,360
kind of delay gratification
effort before, don't stack

839
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,880
during.
So just pick one and really work

840
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,920
on resetting afterwards.
So deep breathing, taking a

841
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,320
walk, something that is going to
help your body with that crash

842
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,040
landing.
In a in off ramp.

843
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,320
Yes, in off ramp, exactly.
I like that.

844
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:26,960
I like.
That and then finally I have

845
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,720
some everyday ways to increase
baseline dopamine as a family.

846
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:32,920
Can we talk about those?
OK, great.

847
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,640
So #1 not, none of these are
going to be surprising, but I

848
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,480
think it's important just to
recount them.

849
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,440
Number one is sleep.
The best dopamine reset for your

850
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,880
body.
And people may hate me for this,

851
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,560
but I did look up the sleep
guidelines from the American

852
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,640
Academy of Sleep Medicine, which
has been endorsed by the CDC,

853
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,400
Academy of Pediatrics, etcetera.
And for school age children,

854
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,040
that's 6 to 12.
Guess how many hours per night

855
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,000
they want you to sleep?
I cheated, so I know.

856
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:06,840
Oh, OK, 9 to 12 for kids ages 6
to 12/9 to 12 hours of sleep.

857
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,720
That's not in bedtime, that's
sleep a night, right?

858
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:14,480
I don't even know.
Like, I don't even think Hunter

859
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,280
gets that right now.
And if you're younger, it's more

860
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,960
like preschoolers, 10 to 13
hours.

861
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:21,520
Sometimes that can include a
nap.

862
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,320
But the point is that we all
need more sleep.

863
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:29,000
We all need more sleep.
And that's the best thing you

864
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,960
can do for so many different
functions in your body, but

865
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,880
certainly for your dopamine
reserves or dopamine stores.

866
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,640
Definitely.
The second when you can't get

867
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,720
sleep is what they call non
sleep deep rest NSDR, which I

868
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,760
discovered when I was pregnant
with Hunter through Greg's aunt.

869
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,320
It's the specific term, like the
specific form of NSDR that we do

870
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,960
is called yoga nidra, which
tends to be like a 15 to 25

871
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,240
minute body scan.
So it's different than a

872
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:00,080
meditation.
This is something that I think

873
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:04,000
the research is very clear on
that a focused sitting up

874
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:09,040
straight kind of ohm type
meditation is not an SDR and it

875
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,320
is not yoga nidra.
This is non sleep deep rest.

876
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,760
It is when your body truly goes
into, I want to call it like a

877
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,520
catatonic state.
And so that can just even 10 to

878
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,840
20 minutes of a yoga nidra can
restore dopamine reserves by up

879
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,200
to 65%.
Your aunt used to tell me it was

880
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:33,280
equivalent to like 2 to 4 hours
of sleep and that sounds crazy

881
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,320
but I always felt it and this
really confirms it.

882
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:38,880
For sure.
I I believe it.

883
00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:42,280
I think it's really equivalent
to a part of the sleep cycle.

884
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,880
I think it's equivalent to the
R.E.M. state.

885
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,480
Cause I've I always when I was
when I used to track my sleep.

886
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,760
I don't really do that anymore.
Would notice if I if I had a low

887
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,520
R.E.M.
Morning that doing a yoga nidra

888
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,440
would give me that feeling like
I caught up on REM sleep.

889
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,200
Yeah, Anybody out there that's
like first trimester, pregnant

890
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,320
and just so tired?
It got me through every single

891
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,560
day.
Yoga nidra, There are a lot of

892
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,400
them on Spotify.
There are a lot of yoga Nidra

893
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,080
for kids playlists on Spotify as
well that are just more like 10

894
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,880
to 15 minutes.
But just having that as a tool

895
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,560
in the tool kit for our family
is incredibly helpful.

896
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:28,520
Oh yeah.
OK, so sleep, non sleep, deep

897
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,720
rest, nutrition, dopamine
building blocks, in particular

898
00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:36,280
tyrosine, which is an amino acid
that your body uses to make

899
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,240
dopamine.
So there are certain foods that

900
00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:42,960
are especially high in tyrosine,
Parmesan cheese being the

901
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:49,040
biggest 1 fish like salmon and
tuna, Turkey, beef, eggs, nuts,

902
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,600
seeds, all all healthy things
for you, right?

903
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:59,000
But that these are particularly
helpful to build your dopamine

904
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000
reserves over time.
Nice.

905
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:02,960
I was research.
When I was doing the research, I

906
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,880
was like, OK, should I have
given Jade like a high tyrosine

907
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,240
snack after the movie?
And no, that's not going to

908
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,640
help.
It's not like an instant.

909
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,880
It's not going to help with that
crash in any way.

910
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,080
This is really about buffering
the baseline.

911
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:23,320
Yeah, there's there's some good
uses for L tyrosine as a

912
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,760
supplement and L Dopa in the
form of Mikuna purines,

913
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:33,040
especially if your your systems
are a little bit out of whack

914
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,840
and you need to kind of have a a
reset around dopamine like I've

915
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,680
I've done some some work with
both of those.

916
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:46,080
Your mileage may vary, but I if
you if you struggle with waking

917
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:50,240
up in the morning or if you want
to quit coffee, actually this is

918
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,880
a really good one.
If you if you want to give up

919
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,720
coffee, don't give it up without
something like altiracine

920
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:01,280
because you will really hate
yourself for many many weeks.

921
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,720
Good to know.
Yeah, I wonder, I guess it's

922
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:06,320
because it really supports
dopamine levels, correct.

923
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,560
OK.
Yeah.

924
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,600
So.
After hangovers and, you know,

925
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:17,080
bad sleep, I I often found
myself spooning like almond

926
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,160
butter in my mouth.
Yes.

927
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,440
Totally.
This is exactly why it's a.

928
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,720
It's a tyrosine.
It's tyrosine heavy food.

929
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,240
I wouldn't recommend that it's
a.

930
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:26,920
OK.
All right.

931
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,680
Morning sunlight this as early
in the day as possible.

932
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,480
Circadian reset.
Circadian reset.

933
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,520
Exactly.
But it also it it helps you get

934
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,440
your cortisol to release as
early in the day as possible,

935
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,720
which is what you want.
And it leads to restoring

936
00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:47,600
dopamine reserves and all types
of homeostasis.

937
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,400
So on a sunny day, it's really
just five to 10 minutes.

938
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,960
Cloudier, Overcast days, it's
like up to 30 minutes.

939
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,360
But apparently it's especially
important to get outside on

940
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,640
cloudy days.
Yeah.

941
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,040
Oh, because the the light.
Correct, because there's less

942
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,120
light getting inside.
So you, you want to go outside.

943
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,640
So that's probably like the, my
favorite thing that Winston has

944
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,400
done for us is that he gets me
outside first thing every

945
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,360
morning as soon as the sun is
up.

946
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,160
Sometimes the sun isn't even
quite up, right?

947
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:20,400
And then the last one is
movement.

948
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,680
So regular exercise that's both
cardiovascular and strength

949
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,480
training can really help support
dopamine levels.

950
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,440
OK, great.
So this has been our

951
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:33,360
conversation on dopamine motes,
right?

952
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,920
And I think the dopamine is
wonderful.

953
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,560
It fuels humans to do incredible
things.

954
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:43,120
But the real question is really,
in today's world, given that

955
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:49,360
cheap dopamine is ever present,
can we learn to harness it to

956
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,400
provide lasting motivation?
Or are we kind of going to get

957
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,800
swept up in the tsunami that is
cheap dopamine, right?

958
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,360
And so for me, what I take away
is that we're going to try to

959
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:05,000
continue to reduce our reliance
on external kind of instant

960
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:10,480
forces of dopamine and to really
promote activities that

961
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,840
naturally stimulate dopamine
release.

962
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,240
Totally.
I think we're we're committed to

963
00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:19,600
that path.
I love talking about this stuff

964
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,440
because I think it's important
from a family culture

965
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,560
perspective to understand like
what what are these factors that

966
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,040
are that we're up against?
Sure, right.

967
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:37,720
I think that everyone building
any product for a consumer is

968
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,360
probably building it around
cheap dopamine these.

969
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,680
Days it would behoove them for.
Sure, exactly.

970
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:50,280
So part of the dopamine mote is
pretty obvious, but it's keeping

971
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,880
out advertising, keeping out,
you know, buying the ad free

972
00:56:54,880 --> 00:57:00,240
version of everything that our
kids see, that we see, like not

973
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:04,400
turning on the news, not having,
you know, any news e-mail alerts

974
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,320
or anything like that.
I hear you.

975
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,800
And I understand how initially
that would be a reaction.

976
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,640
I just don't know how realistic
that is.

977
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,160
And I would just caution US
against being too.

978
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,880
Like, if there's one thing that
this trip has taught me, it's

979
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,320
that I want to invite the
outside world in more.

980
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,160
And so I don't necessarily
ascribe to the idea of

981
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,200
completely sheltering the
children from what's out there.

982
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:33,280
What I do want to do is open the
conversation about how pervasive

983
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,640
this stuff is and help them
become discerning consumers as

984
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,920
early as possible and to
normalize and to just like Brené

985
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,840
Brown says that normalization is
the antidote to shame.

986
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:51,000
And that just to normalize that
this is a normal that everybody

987
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,040
loves to eat a bag of chips.
That like, it's very hard to

988
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,920
find someone who's going to be
OK eating three chips, right?

989
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:00,360
And so if you ate a bag of
chips, like, that's cool.

990
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:01,560
It happens.
But like, what?

991
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,280
What can you learn from it?
What just happened here?

992
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,680
No, I, I, I agree with
everything you said.

993
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,560
I do want to invite the outside
world in.

994
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:11,760
I just don't want it to be
invited in through an ad

995
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,320
exchange, you know, through a
place.

996
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,840
But this is like a teach a man a
fish versus give a man a fish

997
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:20,000
kind of thing.
If you block, if you block all

998
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:22,240
of that.
And I feel like I have friends

999
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,640
who were really sheltered
growing up and then they got to

1000
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:28,320
college and they went nuts.
Like I don't want to completely

1001
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,040
block our children from things
out there.

1002
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:33,760
I want to especially Hunter,
who's 7 at this point, like she

1003
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,400
can, she can think critically
like she can become, especially

1004
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,960
if we teach her about, you know,
the Charlie Munger ISM of like,

1005
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,360
show me the incentives and I'll
show you what is it the

1006
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,320
outcomes, the outcomes.
Like what are these people's

1007
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,200
incentives?
What are they trying to motivate

1008
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:49,800
you to do?
And do you want to do it?

1009
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,800
Yep, no, I totally.
Great, Have I changed your mind?

1010
00:58:55,160 --> 00:59:01,240
Yeah, you and you, you've
definitely changed my my

1011
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:08,280
perspective on the sheltering.
The the news, not so much.

1012
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,040
I just don't believe that news
has any place in it.

1013
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:12,200
I didn't say.
I didn't say.

1014
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,120
News no, we can we can we can
debate that another time.

1015
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:21,000
But like I'm I'm a I'm a staunch
I'm a staunch tea toddler when

1016
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:26,200
it comes to any kind of news
like getting that that doesn't

1017
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,240
appeal to you that sorry, that
doesn't apply to you coming into

1018
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:30,880
the house.
So like New York Times, like

1019
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,760
news alerts off like.
That's that's a whole

1020
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,040
conversation for a different.
Episode but those are I have.

1021
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:37,920
Some thoughts on those?
Too.

1022
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:40,880
Those are cheap dopamine. 100% I
think you could add that in same

1023
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:43,680
day Amazon deliveries like.
That's that's number one news.

1024
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,720
Alerts all the things, the
dopamine just keeps rolling in.

1025
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,120
But yeah, so I think we've said
enough and would love to hear if

1026
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,000
anybody else has some innovative
ideas of how to build a dopamine

1027
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,600
mote around your family.
Let us know.

1028
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:56,960
Yeah, totally.
OK, great.

1029
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:57,400
It's.
Been great.

1030
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,160
Yeah.
He's so fun.

1031
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:59,600
Love you, goosey love.
You goosey.

1032
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,480
Hey guys, if you're still here,
you're definitely our kind of

1033
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,640
person.
Thanks for spending this time

1034
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,280
with us on The Most Important
Thing.

1035
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,200
If this episode resonated with
you, we'd love for you to follow

1036
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,560
us wherever you get your
podcasts and share it with

1037
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,320
someone else.
Building family culture on

1038
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:16,880
purpose.